What I hate about A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers Ahead)

Shard O'Glase said:
I couldn't even get through book one of Martin. Everyone likes different things, but his characters didn't grip me, neither did his story or writing style. As for the gore, morality, perversions etc. I never saw it as some shades of grey thing, to me it was pure shock value, which sometimes can be entertaining, but even failed in that respect for me.

That's the fun, interesting thing about art and people -- they interact with each other, and because people are different and want or need different things at different times, that interaction may not be all that one would hope.

My experience is that Martin's series was the first in a long time that I literally couldn't put down except when I had to sleep or work. It was so different in many ways, and different where I wanted it to be different.

One of the areas where the books succeed for me is in suspense -- because Martin's not afraid to butcher/maim well-developed (even "main") characters, you really don't know for sure if the main characters are going to live through the book. And sure enough, some of them don't. I haven't seen a guy so willing to kill off his creations since Stephen King. :D
 

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Tsyr said:
Of course Rand can't die before TG, not if the weave wills it so.

Remember though, in WoT the pattern (A.K.A. Fate) is a very REAL thing. It DOES have power to do things like that. It's not just "luck"... argueably, there is no "luck" in the Jordanverse at all.

Wheel of time is a book ABOUT destiny, that was made clear from book one, it shouldn't come as a surprise. It's the underlying plot of the book. Which I actualy find refreshing, too many books/stories seem to be about changing fate (Raistlin in Dragonlance, Vanyel in Valdemar, Luke in Star Wars, etc)... Wheel of Time shows that some things aren't escableable no matter how much you might try. Mat doesn't WANT to lead the Band of the Red Hand, Perrin doesn't WANT to turn in to what he did, Rand didn't WANT to be the Dragon Reborn... but they couldn't change destiny.

IMNSHO, of course.

Okay, I was going to keep quiet, but then you had to bring up Vanyel as a counter-measure to Fate... and since, coincidentally, I was just telling someone about those novels tonight, I'm going to have to completely, and utterly, disagree with you on this single point.

Vanyel's entire story, his entire life, revolves around Fate... that he cannot avoid his Destiny. And in the end, he cannot. I won't go into toooo many details, just because of the potential spoilers involved, but he's as much a victim as Fate as any of Jordan's characters... only it took just three novels for him to fall to Fate's decree, while Jordan's characters just keep going, and going, and going, and going, and going...

- Christopher
 

I know Vanyel wasn't the best example :) But if you hadn't read the last book, you could see it. Without the last book, Vanyel is just a guy who does what he does because, more or less, he can. Sure he has duty and obligation to the Heralds, but even that was his own choice.
 

"read the Shanara series, read the Dark Elf books."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

and etc.

TTFN
 

King_Stannis

go read the other 10,000 shlock novels on the shelf at barnes & noble. as for me, i'll gladly read one that dares to be different - and does so in such a masterful way.

Huh? Just becuase he is the first author you have read like this, doesn't mean he's the first. What exactly is he dareing? Leaf thru some of those "shclock" novels. You might just get suprised.
 

EricNoah said:



One of the areas where the books succeed for me is in suspense -- because Martin's not afraid to butcher/maim well-developed (even "main") characters, you really don't know for sure if the main characters are going to live through the book. And sure enough, some of them don't. I haven't seen a guy so willing to kill off his creations since Stephen King. :D

Stephen King, the master of storytelling and killing off characters :) My favorite author, hands down, when it comes to fiction. I'll be surprised if the Gunslinger makes it to the Dark Tower without riding in a wheelchair. That guy has been through more pain than I care to imagine. (Still love the books though)
 

WizarDru said:
It's my belief that Ned Stark's primary role was to underscore this very point. I nearly dropped the book when they killed him, so sure I was that he'd make it through. I kept trying to figure out how this would turn out to be a trick, and quickly realized that it wasn't, and that bad things happen to good people.

There are plenty of heroes in Martin's series...but there are no pristine characters who always follow the sign of righteousness. At least, not in the sunshine fashion of say, characters from Eddings work. Jordan's characters are a more noble group, but they too see the necessity of pragmatism in the face of armageddon. They will do what they must, even if they don't like it....but are essentially very likeable characters. Martin's characters aren't always very likeable...but they're always compelling.

I love the WoT, and I don't mind it taking a long time. What I mind is that Jordan appears stymied by his own creation, and his gotten bogged down in trying to continue it. I worry that it's going to devolve into a 'War against the Chtorr'...with the books getting more and more distant, until the author is perrenially promising the next book every year, and never delivering. Or worse, that he manages to release a new book periodically, but the story fails to progress significantly. The most recent book gives me hope that this will not happen. I hope.

That said, there's nothing wrong with disliking this style of fiction. But I've never said anything bad about Dragonlance, for the record. It's not my cup of tea, but I know many people who enjoyed it, until it became something of a cash-cow for TSR, who milked it far more than they probably should have. The word Xanth comes to mind. :)

I absolutely agree about Ned Stark's death! And the funny thing was, although he did it once, and I thought I'd learnt my lesson, when other characters I had naively assumed were likewise indispensible were similarly slaughtered, the shock was no less. More power to Mr Martin. The most original fantasy for a great many years, I would say. Sure, I can see why it might not be to everyone's taste, and boy, is it long and difficult to read, but you don't need to get into it very far to know whether you're going to enjoy it or not. It's not the sort of book you read with only half your brain engaged, that is for certain. No, I love the fact that the characters are not ridiculous personifications of polarized good and evil that feature in a good deal of the other fantasy authors.

My advice, if you're not enjoying it, then don't persevere. It's not going to get any "better"!

As for the Wheel of Time, I keep trying, but I can't do it. I think my big problem is the whole concept of destiny that is clearly the focus of the books. If you can't substantially change anything, and everything is mapped out before you do it, then what's the point.

And Dragonlance and Brooks and the others, well, once, when I was very young, I thought they were great, but even back then, I was a bit embarrassed about liking them, and hid them behind Frank Herbert and Tolkein and others I was more certain about on the shelves! Sorry, I'm just a big old intellectual snob, I guess!
 



There may be SPOILERS in this reply!!

Someone said it around page 2 or so, but it bears repeating. Although I find GRRM to be a fantastic author, he's not the best at everything. There are a dozen and more ways that a novel can be engaging to the reader, that it can be successful as a story, and each author is successful in each way in varying degrees.

George RR Martin is a good author for me for exactly the same reasons cited by Eric Noah. He's fearless. Like a deist god, he sets down his creations and then leaves them be, allowing them to face his very harsh world no-holds-barred. He's suspenseful, and you never know if your favorite characters are going to come out all right. But there are other authors who are better than he in different ways.

[color=sky blue]Jennifer Roberson[/color] is the queen of harsh and emotionally devastating dialogue. The exchanges between characters in the Tiger and Del novels are the sharpest I've ever read. At times, people say such horrible things (not graphically, but emotionally painful,) that I felt myself feeling real sympathy for them. She isn't as willing to see her characters die as Martin is, and her plots are far more transparent, but there is more emotional charge in one of her novels than Martin's entire series.

David Eddings is the master of easy dialogue. There's no real danger in his worlds, as his characters usually amass godlike (or more frequently, beyond godlike) power rather quickly. But more than any other author, he manages to make me see his main characters as friends. They aren't just plot-devices that happen to be in the same town, they really care about each other. In ASoIaF, Ned does a good job of handling little Arya, but it doesn't hold a candle to the relationship Eddings shows us between Belgarath and Polgara (especially in the first series.)

Tad Williams writes poetry. It's prose, but it feels more like poetry. Some find his writing to be verbose, but there's a beauty in the language itself that I find compelling. One of the last scenes, where Miriamele comes to Simon over the melting snow, was so perfect I had to re-read it several times, just enjoying the words. GRRM is a good prose-writer too. But I was never gripped by the words themselves in his writing, as I was with TW. TW is akin to Tolkien in this way, in that the way something is said is as important as saying it in the first place.

I turn to Robert Jordan when I am looking for an epic feeling. His series has been dragging on now, and I suspect several of his later plots of being filler (Suddenly it's hot, and the only way to save everyone is if Nynaeve and Elayne find this magic bowl?! Ugh.) But Jordan has a way with creating powerful scenes. There are times when I can feel the foundations of his world shaking. Where I can feel the power of the events taking place. I got goosebumps when Mazrim Taim commanded the Aes Sedai to "kneel before the Dragon Reborn!" His world was changed forever. GRRM hasn't managed to do that yet. Perhaps he will in the future, but Jordan has already shown himself a master of this, no matter what his other failings.

There are other authors as well. Too many to name, really. Guy Gavriel Kay, Esther Friesner (the fantasy humorist, in my opinion,) Dave Duncan, et al. And none of it is "shlock" in the slightest. Most of today's greatest authors can't do what GRRM does best, but neither can he do what they do best.

Hmm...I guess the point of this post is that there are a lot of great authors out there, and that they all have something special to offer. :)
 

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