What I hate about A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers Ahead)

[Scarogoth]

See while I'm not sure I'd call his characters ridiculaous personifications, I thought Martins characters were the most unrealistic characters I ever read. Now maybe medevil lifestyle creates people like that, I don't know, but to me the characters were so unrealistic I could not get into them at all.

Well, that just goes to show, doesn't it? For me, how he managed to make every single character a completely different personality (and there are SO many of them!) and, at that, an entirely believable one, is merely part of his genius. Still, I'm quite happy to think that whatever you think is just as valid as what I think, so we don't need to argue. Certainly the mentalities on display owe something to the mindset of medieval times, but that is not so far removed from our very own times -- much as we might like to imagine otherwise -- it's just that kings and queens have largely been replaced by media moguls and supercelebrities.

Thank heavens not everyone in the world likes the same things! What a boring place it would be were it so…

 

[Mallus]

]Originally posted by Shard O'Glase
Now maybe medevil lifestyle creates people like that, I don't know, but to me the characters were so unrealistic I could not get into them at all.

Actually, it created people who were an order of magnitude less likable than Martin's characters. The Borgias come to mind, as do a whole host of Popes.

I don't want to go down the road of arguing taste. But it strikes me as odd that someone would read the literature of the fantastic and expect to find characters that are comforting and nice and safe --by their own 21st century, assumedly middle class or higher, often suburban standards. Don't we read about these fantastic otherworldy places and cultures to encounter people other than our co-workers and the sales clerk at the mall?

The morality of 'grittier' fantasy doesn't disturb me half as much as the moral disconnect that goes on in most more traditional fantasy novels. There's war, but little suffering. Killing but no blood. So far, no-one here has argued for the removal of violence from fantasy novels. Isn't the sanitized portrayal of mayhem a morally repugnant thing in and of itself? I'm not arguing that all fantasy be in the mold of "Ice and Fire". Back in the day I loved David Eddings. The Belgariad is epic fantasy meets "Friends". But its a little creepy to think those books are also a massive war story where the entire moral character of that universe is on the line...

 

[Dr Midnight]

Thank heavens not everyone in the world likes the same things! What a boring place it would be were it so…

I dunno... I tend to think that if everyone liked the same things, the world would be full of them, and you wouldn't find it boring, because you'd like them too. It wouldn't be very diverse or adventurous, but would you care? You've got exactly what you like.

Reminds me of Jhonen Vasquez's vision of heaven from an issue of Johnny the Homicidal Maniac: everyone sitting around on a stool, staring into space. When Johnny asked some nearby saint what the hell kind of heaven it was, he was told that everyone was perfectly content, all the time. Content to sit on a stool for eternity is as effective a heaven as I can imagine.

 

[bramadan]

Tangentialy,
As far as I am concerned the greatest moral affront commited by a "good" character in the books was one by the Jon Snow and that is not in abandoning the Crows for a while for Mance and Ygritte but betraying Yggrite for the dubious honour of the Night Watch. That sort of thing is a begining of the road that leads to the Stannis Baratheon, character who I find most despicable in the entire book - counting in Cleaganes and Cercei [ok, maybe not counting Danu's brother].

On the other hand there is a plenty of people who not only think that Jon did a Good Thing but that King Stannis is a paragon of virtue. The very fact that among the readers there is such a wide disparity shows how contrieved are all the moralising good vs evil type books.

 

[Scarogoth]

I dunno... I tend to think that if everyone liked the same things, the world would be full of them, and you wouldn't find it boring, because you'd like them too. It wouldn't be very diverse or adventurous, but would you care? You've got exactly what you like.

Reminds me of Jhonen Vasquez's vision of heaven from an issue of Johnny the Homicidal Maniac: everyone sitting around on a stool, staring into space. When Johnny asked some nearby saint what the hell kind of heaven it was, he was told that everyone was perfectly content, all the time. Content to sit on a stool for eternity is as effective a heaven as I can imagine.

\

Ah, yes, but it doesn't work like that. Just imagine that Tom Cruise is considered the sexiest bloke alive and Reese Witherspoon the sexiest girl. Everybody in the world thinks they are the ideal type, and we all agree. Gosh, are they just divine!? Who could want anything more?

Just one slight, big problem. There is only one Tom Cruise and one Reese in the entire world. Everyone else, instantly frustrated, despondent and unhappy…

 

[King_Stannis]

...That sort of thing is a begining of the road that leads to the Stannis Baratheon, character who I find most despicable in the entire book - counting in Cleaganes and Cercei ...

backoff, buddy

i do find stannis one of the most fascinating people in the book. in one sense, a hard, cold and very rigid leader. but on the other, a person with the inner desire to do good (or what he perceives to be "good"). he is so complex a character, that it is easy to overlook at first. much of stannis can be gleaned from his speech to the onion knight after his brother's (renly) death. he talks of how only his brother could vex him with a peach - but that he loved him all the while. that passage is slowly becoming my favorite passage of any book i've ever read. go back and reread it - i believe it is in the second book, "a clash of kings".

If ever there was a lawful neutral character, it is King Stannis Baratheon.

 

[Dr Midnight]

Ah, yes, but it doesn't work like that. Just imagine that Tom Cruise is considered the sexiest bloke alive and Reese Witherspoon the sexiest girl. Everybody in the world thinks they are the ideal type, and we all agree. Gosh, are they just divine!? Who could want anything more?

Just one slight, big problem. There is only one Tom Cruise and one Reese in the entire world. Everyone else, instantly frustrated, despondent and unhappy…

Ah, yes, but it WOULD work like that, if that's what everyone liked. How? Evolution- survival of the Cruiseiest and Witherspoonest. Mankind would spend time in a world where your genes are passed down by resembling one of these two people. The more you happen to look like Cruise or Reese, the better your chances of mating and passing your genes. The end result? A world where everyone in the world looks like Cruise and Reese.

(man, sorry about how OT I've taken this...)

 

[Scarogoth]

Ah, yes, but it WOULD work like that, if that's what everyone liked. How? Evolution- survival of the Cruiseiest and Witherspoonest. Mankind would spend time in a world where your genes are passed down by resembling one of these two people. The more you happen to look like Cruise or Reese, the better your chances of mating and passing your genes. The end result? A world where everyone in the world looks like Cruise and Reese.

(man, sorry about how OT I've taken this...)

Yeah, but to get to that stage, there's got to be one helluva lot of dead, unhappy people discarded along the way.

[PS. How's that? Straight back OT in one sentence -- at least, if we pretend we're still talking about Mr Martin's books!!!]

 

[Dr Midnight]

Yeah, but to get to that stage, there's got to be one helluva lot of dead, unhappy people discarded along the way.

Well, that's just a staple of evolution, be it in this reality or a reality where people only find Reese Witherspoon attractive. The point is that if we all only liked one variety of a given thing, we'd probably find a way to have it... with plenty to spare.

 

[Scarogoth]

Well, that's just a staple of evolution, be it in this reality or a reality where people only find Reese Witherspoon attractive. The point is that if we all only liked one variety of a given thing, we'd probably find a way to have it... with plenty to spare.

OK. Why don't you start the next stage of evolution by deciding that one day man is going to live on cornflakes alone. Starting with you. See how you get on…?

Evolution does not like to be given orders…

{Sorry, we've gone OT again -- or should that be OTT? Hmmm… muses}