Level Up (A5E) What if an array is the default?

[DND_Reborn]

Weren't ability scores in 1E WAY less impactful?? Play the guy in 5e and your weapons attack are done at +2 at level 1, your Spell Attacks at +3 and your spell DC is 11.

Oh, certainly 1E had a wide "mid-range" of no modifiers (typically about 7-14 had little impact, if any)!

FWIW, my 1E PC with WIS 12 meant he had a 5% chance of spell failure every time he cast a cleric spell. That was hard when it happened since I also had no bonus spells slots (which a higher WIS could have given me).

But that is my point, in 5E that would be like having a character with all 10's. Many people might not enjoy such a PC as much, but they could certainly play one and be successful at it. So, playing that PC in 5E would still work fine, just more challenging. Given how easy a lot of the aspect of 5E are, I don't see that as a bad thing myself.

 

[Undrave]

But that is my point, in 5E that would be like having a character with all 10's. Many people might not enjoy such a PC as much, but they could certainly play one and be successful at it. So, playing that PC in 5E would still work fine, just more challenging. Given how easy a lot of the aspect of 5E are, I don't see that as a bad thing myself.

At level 1, with a 16 in your attack stat and +2 proficiency, you're expected to hit about 55% of the time against the regular rabble. Use a 10 and your hit chance go down to 40%, meaning you miss 60% of the time... I wouldn't call that particularly successful... just that it would make fights more grindy.

Plus, nobody can wear heavy armour and your DEX at 0 means you'll get hit ALL THE TIME with +0 in CON so bad HP too.

That character is gonna have a BAD time and frankly I would rather have it die faster so I could roll a better one. It's not challenging, it's just slow and frustrating.

Just about the only good character I could come up with that is like... a Fey Pact Warlock with the Mage Armour invocation (so my AC is 13 at best) that spams Sleep.

Maybe if you include flanking rules it could help a little?

 

[glass]

Having the same scores, even if in different places make the PCs more' fair' to the others in terms of power and balance.

Indeed. My point was that point buy in 5e is busywork, since they could just have printed the array everyone ended up with anyway and saved everyone a lot of effort. EDIT: So two or three reaonably balanced arrays would be an improvement.

_
glass.

 

[DND_Reborn]

At level 1, with a 16 in your attack stat and +2 proficiency, you're expected to hit about 55% of the time against the regular rabble. Use a 10 and your hit chance go down to 40%, meaning you miss 60% of the time... I wouldn't call that particularly successful... just that it would make fights more grindy.

Plus, nobody can wear heavy armour and your DEX at 0 means you'll get hit ALL THE TIME with +0 in CON so bad HP too.

That character is gonna have a BAD time and frankly I would rather have it die faster so I could roll a better one. It's not challenging, it's just slow and frustrating.

Just about the only good character I could come up with that is like... a Fey Pact Warlock with the Mage Armour invocation (so my AC is 13 at best) that spams Sleep.

Maybe if you include flanking rules it could help a little?

A lot of it depends on the role this PC plays. In my 1E, I was a healer. I stayed back a lot, used my staff sling, etc. and then ran into the fray to help where I could.

Now, in 5E, such a PC could be much more effective. He could weary heavy armor and shield, so even with the DEX 9 have an AC 17 (better with Shield of Faith). Sure, his speed would be less, but that doesn't have to be a huge factor depending on the game style. If he went Nature Domain, he could use Shillelagh to bump his attacks to +3 instead of +2 and get better weapon damage. With Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead, he could help out better at range as well.

I don't find such a PC to be a grind, just a challenge. It isn't for everyone, but it does go against your idea that "Below average individuals don't become adventurers." That was really just my point.

EDIT: And we do use flanking rules.

 

[Undrave]

Now, in 5E, such a PC could be much more effective. He could weary heavy armor and shield, so even with the DEX 9 have an AC 17 (better with Shield of Faith). Sure, his speed would be less, but that doesn't have to be a huge factor depending on the game style. If he went Nature Domain, he could use Shillelagh to bump his attacks to +3 instead of +2 and get better weapon damage. With Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead, he could help out better at range as well.

You need a STR of 13 to wear Chain Mail and 15 to wear Splint and Plate. There's no STR requirement for Ring Mail or Shield so an AC of 16 is possible.

 

[DND_Reborn]

You need a STR of 13 to wear Chain Mail and 15 to wear Splint and Plate. There's no STR requirement for Ring Mail or Shield so an AC of 16 is possible.

Nope. It just reduces your speed by 10, which is why I said his speed would be 20.

 

[Arilyn]

I often thought there should be several arrays, and you pick whichever flavor you want. The ones that have the highest numbers (e.g. 18?) have the fewest overall points.

So there's:

• "Jack of all trades" (most overall points, nothing over 14)
• "Great at one thing" (an 18)
• "The two primary stat build" (two 15's or 16's)
• "standard array"
• etc....

At our table, we have a page of arrays that players can choose from. Having one array does make characters samey.

 

[Undrave]

A lot of it depends on the role this PC plays. In my 1E, I was a healer. I stayed back a lot, used my staff sling, etc. and then ran into the fray to help where I could.

Now, in 5E, such a PC could be much more effective. He could weary heavy armor and shield, so even with the DEX 9 have an AC 17 (better with Shield of Faith). Sure, his speed would be less, but that doesn't have to be a huge factor depending on the game style. If he went Nature Domain, he could use Shillelagh to bump his attacks to +3 instead of +2 and get better weapon damage. With Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead, he could help out better at range as well.

I don't find such a PC to be a grind, just a challenge. It isn't for everyone, but it does go against your idea that "Below average individuals don't become adventurers." That was really just my point.

EDIT: And we do use flanking rules.

I just realized that a Moon Druid would also be good with that stat line up, because they wouldn't be using their own Ability scores. Make of that what you will I guess.

Nope. It just reduces your speed by 10, which is why I said his speed would be 20.

View attachment 124936

Ah...my bad then!

 

[DND_Reborn]

I just realized that a Moon Druid would also be good with that stat line up, because they wouldn't be using their own Ability scores. Make of that what you will I guess.

Ah...my bad then!

Yeah, I thought about the benefits of Wild Shape as well after I posted. I think the character is easily viable, just not in ways most people are used to playing.

And no worries, I thought that at first as well until I actually read more of the PHB. It's easy to miss, frankly.

 

[Haldrik]

Having the same scores, even if in different places make the PCs more' fair' to the others in terms of power and balance. When I was younger, we used to roll 3d6, then 4d6, and eventually 3d6+1d8 to make stats. It was always fun to make characters and rolling is p[art of the fun. Today, none of my group cares either way and defaults to picking from an array. I'm not sure, but others point to the math being about the same either way in terms of bonuses and super-PCs mostly used to happen when people rolled 'at home' and not as part of a 0-session.

We have been having a lot of pages over several threads about stats and bonuses. Nobody has mentioned yet about letting players just assign any score they want to their PC. There is a lot of talk about not being able to make the character one wants if they cannot get a +2 to the primary class or needing to pick a certain race to get something. I wonder how far away we are from just letting each person pick whatever they want. There will be the 18s all down the line and the player saying that his PC is a 'hero' among his race and others will just pick a low score in something to play what he envisioned. Most may be fairer than others. I'm not for this, but more surprised we have not gotten this far yet.

Also @TwoSix

Even when players pick whatever scores they want, the default array is still useful to communicate a baseline for what the gaming engine expects, to measure how high or low the chosen abilities are.