D&D 5E What if applying ASIs to worse abilities gave greater bonuses?

[koga305]

One thing that's pretty noticeable about D&D in general, and 5E in particular, is that it's often better to improve the things that you're already the best at than to shore up your weaknesses. Thus, when increasing their ability scores you'll often see your players boosting their 18 Strength to 20 or (after that's done) their 14 Constitution to 16 rather than increasing their 8 Charisma to 10.

Isn't that a pity? It seems like in a lot of fantasy stories, the characters spend a lot of time overcoming their weaknesses, not just building on their strengths. Yet in D&D they're not incentivized to do that at all.

What if the Ability Score Improvement gave +4 to a score if it was from 8-10, or +2 to two scores in that range (or even +2 to an 8-10 score and +1 to an 11-19 score)? Would that break anything?

 

[Dausuul]

The main warning light that sets off for me is that it might lead to a strategy of deliberately dumping a stat during point buy, with the intention of buying it up later.

I don't offhand see any way that would lead to overpowered results, but it's something to think about.

 

[abirdcall]

D&D is about stories of a team of characters who are all special.

Often in those fantasy stories there is one main protagonist who has one or more allies. The protagonist is really good at whatever and then they are challenged by their weakness.

In D&D everyone needs a chance to shine. The easiest way to do that is to have everyone have their own specialties. It is a rare story that has 4 or 5 equally important protagonists.

 

[Ath'kethin]

I'm also of the mind that providing an easy opportunity to train out any weaknesses a character may have isn't the best idea. Though it's also part of the reason I use only the default array in my games (though if I have fewer than 4 players I grant an extra +2 they can place where they like).

If somebody wants to be the best at everything, they can work at it just like the rest of us. And that will involve other sacrifices, just like the rest of us.

 

[ccs]

I don't think it'd break anything. Afterall, the games actual default method of stat generation is rolling. So you could start without any low stats right off the bat.

But there's an easier way than rules fiddling to get people to raise whatever they've chosen as thier "dump" stats.
Make those stats matter, to those individual players, during play. If they have a reason to invest in them you'll see some of them do it.

 

[koga305]

I don't think it'd break anything. Afterall, the games actual default method of stat generation is rolling. So you could start without any low stats right off the bat.

But there's an easier way than rules fiddling to get people to raise whatever they've chosen as their "dump" stats.
Make those stats matter, to those individual players, during play. If they have a reason to invest in them you'll see some of them do it.

That is something I already try to do, although it's possible I could be doing a better job. I certainly have had my fair share of players saying (for example) "crap, my Intelligence sucks!" when I ask for a History check to recall information about something that is important to them. But that's actually what inspired this thread, because despite hearing that a lot from players, I haven't seen any of them actually use the ability score increase to bump up a low stat.

Why? It's not a good enough option for them. When my player's Paladin/Warlock looks at increasing stats, he nearly always picks Charisma or a feat because those things impact so much for him (where Intelligence, while useful, doesn't help him at all with any of his class abilities). I think he would like to have a higher Intelligence, as his character recently become the ruler of a nation so knowing things is pretty useful to him. And I would like him to feel like he can do that without handicapping his character. But the in-game difference between +0 and +1 in a stat that doesn't impact your class abilities just isn't very useful.

 

[Dausuul]

That is something I already try to do, although it's possible I could be doing a better job. I certainly have had my fair share of players saying (for example) "crap, my Intelligence sucks!" when I ask for a History check to recall information about something that is important to them. But that's actually what inspired this thread, because despite hearing that a lot from players, I haven't seen any of them actually use the ability score increase to bump up a low stat.

Why? It's not a good enough option for them. When my player's Paladin/Warlock looks at increasing stats, he nearly always picks Charisma or a feat because those things impact so much for him (where Intelligence, while useful, doesn't help him at all with any of his class abilities). I think he would like to have a higher Intelligence, as his character recently become the ruler of a nation so knowing things is pretty useful to him. And I would like him to feel like he can do that without handicapping his character. But the in-game difference between +0 and +1 in a stat that doesn't impact your class abilities just isn't very useful.

I dunno. Will this actually make a difference? For a paladin, buying Int up from 8 to 12 usually still isn't worth an ASI. Even buying it up to 18 in one go would be tough to justify. Skill checks are so swingy--the d20 overwhelms the bonus a lot of the time--that it just isn't worth it for the occasional roll.

Here's an alternative suggestion: Why not allow players to reallocate their starting point buy every so often? (Unless you roll for stats.)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Easiest way: hand out point buy points. I would give 4 of them and have stats above 15 also cost 2 per increase. So no point buy abuse.

 

[koga305]

Easiest way: hand out point buy points. I would give 4 of them and have stats above 15 also cost 2 per increase. So no point buy abuse.

I like it! That's a pretty elegant way to keep things balanced. I might start doing this.


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[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Just keep in mind that however you change stat allocation it won't stop optimization, it will just lead to different optimal patterns.