D&D 5E What if everyone moved, and then every acted?

[RangerWickett]

I was considering the Chatty Duelists scene in The Princess Bride, and realized that level of movement seldom actually happens in D&D due to several reasons, like opportunity attacks, and how location often doesn't matter. If someone did attack, then back up, and the other person followed them, then attacked, it would kind of work, but there's this odd moment in the initiative when the two foes are separated by 30 feet.

It made me wonder, what would be a mechanic to let two characters traverse the battlefield while remaining engaged?

I'm curious about trying out a few fights where each round, every creature moves, and then every creature takes its actions (and bonus actions). I'm wondering how that might play out. Any thoughts before I inflict this on my players?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Are you familiar with HERO? Something along those lines is part of it.

In HERO:

The rules divide combat time into 12-second Turns, with each second referred to as a Segment. The character’s SPD indicates which Segments he can take an Action in; these Segments are his Phases. Thus, a character with 5 SPD has five Phases — five times each Turn when he can act. The Speed Chart indicates the Phases for each SPD.



In each Segment, several characters may have a Phase — for example, characters with SPD 3 and SPD 6 both have a Phase in Segment 4. All characters who can act in a Phase act in order of DEX, from highest to lowest. Thus, a character with DEX 20 acts before one with DEX 18. However, a character may Hold his Action and act later in the Phase if he wants.

Actions
A character may take an Action in each of his Phases. His Actions may include Full Phase Actions (which require his entire Phase) or Half Phase Actions, which require only half of his Phase (in other words, he can perform two Half Phase Actions per Phase). Full Phase Actions include using more than half of your meters of movement or recovering from being Stunned. Half Phase Actions include using up to half your meters of movement.

Attacks are a special type of Action. A character may make a Half Phase Action and then attack; in that case, the attack is considered a Half Phase Action, too. But if a character makes an attack before making any Half Phase Actions, the attack is considered a Full Phase Action. In other words, once a character makes an attack, that’s all he can do that Phase.

Some Actions take so little time to perform that they are Zero Phase Actions. Characters can perform Zero Phase Actions at the beginning of a Phase or after making a Half Phase Action, but not after making an attack. Zero Phase Actions include turning a Power on or off.

Some Actions take no time at all — a character can perform them whenever he wishes, even if he doesn’t have a Phase or has already acted in a Phase. No time Actions include making a Presence Attack, speaking, or making a roll when the GM asks you to.
Attacks

http://www.legendsmiths.com/narosia...tion/hero-philosophy/basic-rules-and-concepts

 

[Fanaelialae]

I was considering the Chatty Duelists scene in The Princess Bride, and realized that level of movement seldom actually happens in D&D due to several reasons, like opportunity attacks, and how location often doesn't matter. If someone did attack, then back up, and the other person followed them, then attacked, it would kind of work, but there's this odd moment in the initiative when the two foes are separated by 30 feet.

It made me wonder, what would be a mechanic to let two characters traverse the battlefield while remaining engaged?

I'm curious about trying out a few fights where each round, every creature moves, and then every creature takes its actions (and bonus actions). I'm wondering how that might play out. Any thoughts before I inflict this on my players?

Unless you change opportunity attacks, I don't think too much would change. Of course, changing opportunity attacks is a fairly significant change.

I haven't thought it through, but maybe something like a Skirmish maneuver, whereby when you move your opponent can use their reaction to follow you but doesn't get the option to take an OA. It would limit your speed to that of your slowest opponent (maybe?).

Hackmaster (the latest edition) also has an initiative system that allows for more nuanced movement. Basically each action (including movement) has a point cost that adds to initiative. When the count reaches that total, you execute that action. It's interesting, but is more complexity than I think it's worth.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I was considering the Chatty Duelists scene in The Princess Bride, and realized that level of movement seldom actually happens in D&D due to several reasons, like opportunity attacks, and how location often doesn't matter. If someone did attack, then back up, and the other person followed them, then attacked, it would kind of work, but there's this odd moment in the initiative when the two foes are separated by 30 feet.

It made me wonder, what would be a mechanic to let two characters traverse the battlefield while remaining engaged?

Simplicity itself: eliminate Disengage as an action. Instead, anyone moves at full speed away from an opponent is considered to be turning their back (thus provoking an opportunity attack) unless they are a beholder or slime or other creature which sees omnidirectionally. If you move at half speed, you can withdraw without turning your back. If you move at half speed but then Dash, then you move your normal distance--so a half-speed Dash is equivalent to the old Disengage.

The main difference is that now you can do things like declare, "I hit the Hill Giant and then back up a bit, trying to wind up next to the well." The Hill Giant can easily follow you with its own movement, so superficially nothing has changed from PHB rules from a white-room combat perspective--but you have at least the opportunity now to exploit terrain and make the fight dynamic. If your cunning plan is for your warhorse to Shove the Hill Giant into the well, now maybe you can.

 

[RangerWickett]

Unless you change opportunity attacks, I don't think too much would change. Of course, changing opportunity attacks is a fairly significant change.

Yeah, I'd eliminate opportunity attacks. If they move past you, you can move along with them, but the only way to keep them from moving is to get to a bottleneck, or grab them. It's pretty easy in real life to run past someone if he's trying to block a 10-ft. wide path.

The other use of OAs is to 'protect the squishies.' The fighter stands in front, and if you run past he punishes you. Well here, if you run to the mage, the mage (depending on initiative) can run away, or can take an action to protect himself because he knows you're about to attack him. And if you want to protect the squishy, you can move so you're all adjacent, though I'm not sure what you'd do at that point.

 

[Xeviat]

Yeah, I'd eliminate opportunity attacks. If they move past you, you can move along with them, but the only way to keep them from moving is to get to a bottleneck, or grab them. It's pretty easy in real life to run past someone if he's trying to block a 10-ft. wide path.

The other use of OAs is to 'protect the squishies.' The fighter stands in front, and if you run past he punishes you. Well here, if you run to the mage, the mage (depending on initiative) can run away, or can take an action to protect himself because he knows you're about to attack him. And if you want to protect the squishy, you can move so you're all adjacent, though I'm not sure what you'd do at that point.

I've strongly been considering removing OAs. Maybe buffing readied actions so that the "defender" type-role would strongly utilize them.

 

[Quickleaf]

I was considering the Chatty Duelists scene in The Princess Bride, and realized that level of movement seldom actually happens in D&D due to several reasons, like opportunity attacks, and how location often doesn't matter. If someone did attack, then back up, and the other person followed them, then attacked, it would kind of work, but there's this odd moment in the initiative when the two foes are separated by 30 feet.

It made me wonder, what would be a mechanic to let two characters traverse the battlefield while remaining engaged?

I'm curious about trying out a few fights where each round, every creature moves, and then every creature takes its actions (and bonus actions). I'm wondering how that might play out. Any thoughts before I inflict this on my players?

Great scene

I think the easiest solution is to include an Engage combat option...

Engage. When you make a melee attack against a creature within 5 feet, you may opt to engage them with quick footwork. Make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check, opposed by their Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If you fail, the creature may take an opportunity attack against you. If you succeed, then you and the creature are engaged. While engaged, you do not provoke opportunity attacks due to movement from one another. Instead, should either of you move away (without taking the Disengage action), the other may opt to use their reaction to move up to their speed along the same path.

EDIT: As an aside, I've been wondering what the game would look like if "Opportunity Attacks" were exclusive to the fighter class.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

Simplicity itself: eliminate Disengage as an action. Instead, anyone moves at full speed away from an opponent is considered to be turning their back (thus provoking an opportunity attack) unless they are a beholder or slime or other creature which sees omnidirectionally. If you move at half speed, you can withdraw without turning your back. If you move at half speed but then Dash, then you move your normal distance--so a half-speed Dash is equivalent to the old Disengage.

The main difference is that now you can do things like declare, "I hit the Hill Giant and then back up a bit, trying to wind up next to the well." The Hill Giant can easily follow you with its own movement, so superficially nothing has changed from PHB rules from a white-room combat perspective--but you have at least the opportunity now to exploit terrain and make the fight dynamic. If your cunning plan is for your warhorse to Shove the Hill Giant into the well, now maybe you can.

I've used a house rule very similar to that since AD&D and it's worked well: If you're in melee and want to move, you either take a regular move or a fighting withdrawal. If you take a regular move the other guy gets an extra attack with rear attack / whatever bonuses. If you do a fighting withdrawal you move half speed and the other guy can either move with you to stay engaged or let you go. This works for simulating all kinds of cinema/genre situations.

That said I'd be interested in seeing the OP's idea in action. I suspect it would work very well.

 

[RangerWickett]

Quickleaf, I like that idea, though I don't think the OA as punishment for a failed attempt is needed. Just let people chase each other.

Another thing I've considered is having damage and other effects not apply until the whole round ends. This would have to go with the divided move phase/action phase. If nothing else, it makes phrasing abilities a lot easier when you can say one-round effects last 'for one round,' rather than 'until the end of the attacker's next turn' like 4e did.

 

[TallIan]

...

I'm curious about trying out a few fights where each round, every creature moves, and then every creature takes its actions (and bonus actions). I'm wondering how that might play out. Any thoughts before I inflict this on my players?

I think that this will adversely affect melee and especially DEX based melee characters. If you want to engage in melee, you are MUCH better off going later, so you can see where your target moves to. If you are a fast melee character you move up to your target and then your target just moves away leaving you with no target.

Ranged attackers are similarly better off moving later so that they can move away from any potential melee, this will be harder to do as ranged is DEX dependant (usually).

I think this idea would require more tinkering than just a change to, everyone moves then everyone acts. Perhaps Mishihari's half move to disengage idea to get what you are after? I think this wouldn't bother rogues too much as they still have the option of dashing as a bonus action and therefore remain speedy.

Princess Bride characters are (IMO) better off simulated with rogue based characters, even if only a level or two, and can therefore use disengage as a bonus action. The characters are much more swashbuckler than armoured knight.