What if races leveled up?

[dnoonan]

A lot of the ideas in here--and the critiques--mirror WotC R&D discussions in both the 3e and 4e eras. I think a lot of players would agree that it's cool to get "elfier" or "dwarfier" over time--although there's less agreement about whether you should automatically get elfier as a consequence of leveling or whether you can choose to do so (or choose something else instead).

Implementation is confounding, though. We tried all sorts of things for 4e--we basically created a "silo" of ever-expanding race benefits that would run through the heroic tier (at which point paragon paths would sorta "take over" that design space).

(Early 3e designs tried a bunch of things with regard to race, too. I just don't remember them as well.)

It's hard to make cool and balanced level-races that:

• Don't rely on a lot of situational modifiers (how many obscure +1s and +2s get forgotten at the average table?).
• Slightly nudge races toward their historically preferred class without making it a mandate.
• Are balanced with each other and with parallel game elements (feats, class features, etc.).
• Leave design space to make cool new classes.
• Somehow handle what it means--thematically--to be "more human." (Some races are easier to design level-ups for than others, in other words.)

And maybe the hardest one:
• Actually _deliver_ on the promise of "you are now 'elfier'" in terms of feel. After a while, an extra +1 Spot is just an incrementally bigger number on your character sheet. It doesn't deliver a feel.

What we wound up with was the heroic-tier racial feats. That's a low-key but straightforward implementation of the desire to get "elfier" over time. It absolutely makes racial level-ups a choice, not a given, though.

Me? I'd kinda like racial level-ups to be a given. But I don't for one second underestimate the difficulty in pulling that off.

David Noonan
DM Rampant

 

[Celebrim]

A lot of the ideas in here--and the critiques--mirror WotC R&D discussions in both the 3e and 4e eras. I think a lot of players would agree that it's cool to get "elfier" or "dwarfier" over time--although there's less agreement about whether you should automatically get elfier as a consequence of leveling or whether you can choose to do so (or choose something else instead).

Thanks for stopping by and providing perspective. Let's just say that I initially thought it would be cooler to get 'elfier' or 'dwarfier' over time, when I started trying to implement that I found it never was actually cool in practice. This forced me to back up and question my original premise: "Why would it be cooler to get elfier or dwarfier over time?"

I've never been able to find a satisfactory answer to that question. In fact, the more I thought about it, the wierder it sounded. I eventually realized that get 'elfier' or 'dwarfier' over time just meant using chargen resources in ways that synergized with my racial archetype, and that mostly people do that anyway and to the extent that they don't, what good does it really do to force them to? Besides, I don't really feel I get 'humanier' over time.

Implementation is confounding, though.

Over the years I've come to realize that if the implementation is confounding, it's probably because the idea wasn't that good in the first place.

What I've settled on is that for the most part racial customization should be limited to making it much easier for the race to do the few things that you want to decide are more or less impossible for every other race or which require extensive training for other races but which are more or less innate skills of that race. Even that has proven to be a difficult list to expand.

Lately I've been thinking of making a list of flaws which a race might possess which are unique to that race, representing extremes in the racial spectrum that don't overlap with other races experiences, but which in some fashion or another might represent a unique advantage to the individual. Maybe 'autistic savants' are unique to humanity. Maybe dwarfs can smell gold from some short distance, but in extreme cases this sensitivity creates severe problems for the individual. Things like that. My main concern there though would be over reliance on these RP cues by players, resulting in parties entirely filled with mildly dysfunctional people. Mechanics => personality is a dangerous thing, which, could probably be the "tl;dr" version of this post.

 

[airwalkrr]

David Noonan's post reminds me of some ideas I had about 4e. One of the things that disappointed me about 4e was that there were still some dead levels with regards to level-dependent benefits. One of the ways I thought about filling those gaps was by granting racial feats for free, or adding extra uses of a race's encounter power, possibly making it an at-will power at some point.

As for the question of why being "elfier" is cool, I think I need only point to books and movies such as The Lord of the Rings. It is the eldest elves such as Elrond and Galadriel in general who often have the greatest wisdom and knowledge of magic, not to mention magical abilities of their own. But contrast this to the elves Bilbo first encounters who just sit around in the trees singing songs. They are a flighty bunch. Of course you might say Elrond and Galadriel gain their abilities from their profession or to put it in game terms, their class. But few characters in Middle-Earth rival their memory of things long past, their knowledge of magic, and their keen perception. In short their are no other characters quite like them, and the only ones who come close are elves or Gandalf, and they often put even Gandalf to shame.

 

[Celebrim]

As for the question of why being "elfier" is cool, I think I need only point to books and movies such as The Lord of the Rings. It is the eldest elves such as Elrond and Galadriel in general who often have the greatest wisdom and knowledge of magic, not to mention magical abilities of their own. But contrast this to the elves Bilbo first encounters who just sit around in the trees singing songs. They are a flighty bunch. Of course you might say Elrond and Galadriel gain their abilities from their profession or to put it in game terms, their class.

Well, yes. Exactly.

But few characters in Middle-Earth rival their memory of things long past, their knowledge of magic, and their keen perception. In short their are no other characters quite like them, and the only ones who come close are elves or Gandalf, and they often put even Gandalf to shame.

I don't understand the 'but'. "Few characters in Middle-Earth rival....", doesn't contridict "gain thier abilities from their profession". Rather, it just highlights that Galadriel is the daughter of Finwe and brother of Feanor (elite ability array compared to an average elf with a non-elite array) and is more than 10,000 years old (plenty of time to earn experience). But really, does Galadriel demonstate any abilities that would put her at more than 9th or 10th level at most? After all, "Gandalf is a 6th level Wizard" (of a +LA race).

 

[airwalkrr]

A few further points come to mind. One of the common bragging points I see bandied about by players of human characters is their bonus skill points per level. Humans are pretty unique in that they have a racial benefit which keeps on giving. I have often heard the refrain, "time to level up and spend my bonus (human) skill points," followed by "yeah, I'm just a halfling." There is, in the game anyway, a certain amount of racial pride that comes with being a human for this very reason. But I have also heard the saying (and been caught saying it myself), "thank god I am an elf or I would be dominated right now," or "good look at hitting my dwarf, giant," and other such quips to similar effect. But these effects are most pronounced at low level and become more and more marginalized as time goes on. At 1st-level, nearly half of your character's abilities might easily be ascribed to race. By the time you are 20th-level (and I have actually been in a few campaigns which went all the way to 20th), you are defined 20 times over by your class. So I think there is definitely room for a little racial progression, perhaps minor benefits such as that which the human gets, which at least helps keep racial abilities relevant. A 20th-level elf with +2 to Spot isn't functionally that much better than a 20th-level human who lacks that racial bonus. And if the human has spent all his bonus racial skill points on Spot, he will actually be better than the elf (all other things being equal).

 

[Dwimmerlied]

[MENTION=12460]airwalkrr[/MENTION]; yeah, this is kinda what I was going to say, and kind of what I did say before; I think that racial levelling might be a way to maintain racial distinctiveness over levels, so that racial traits have some sort of value after 5th level, to prevent them being lost in the white noise of power creep, as opposed to a need for a character to become more elfy or whatever. I think these two things are distinct, and regarding the latter, I think that well-designed classes (or feat chains, perhaps?) could manage that.
[MENTION=82545]dnoonan[/MENTION]; yeah, I can imagine how challenging this might be, especially coming up with something that everyone will agree will fit what it means to be more elfier/dwarfier/dragonbornier... I've had a brief look at these messageboards after any given playtest has been announced and almost every decision is met with what looks like hysteria.

 

[airwalkrr]

I don't understand the 'but'. "Few characters in Middle-Earth rival....", doesn't contridict "gain thier abilities from their profession". Rather, it just highlights that Galadriel is the daughter of Finwe and brother of Feanor (elite ability array compared to an average elf with a non-elite array) and is more than 10,000 years old (plenty of time to earn experience). But really, does Galadriel demonstate any abilities that would put her at more than 9th or 10th level at most? After all, "Gandalf is a 6th level Wizard" (of a +LA race).

There aren't hobbits or men or dwarves or goblins in middle-earth who are known for the same kinds of powers. Galadriel seems to have fairly powerful divination abilities (detect thoughts, empathic transmission, perhaps some form of telepathy), as well as powerful abjuration abilities (nondetection, perhaps even mind block) or mental resistance (elven racial resistance to enchantment?). I won't go into all the details for the sake of brevity but many of these proclivities seem limited to mostly elves (or the Istari), and when it is described, it is only described in the greatest and eldest of these races. So I would say that certainly indicates a racial proclivity that gets better with time. Maybe it is simply that the elves are the only characters in middle earth who can become wizards, but I find the immense self-restraint and mental resistance shown by the eldest elves perhaps the most telling example of something that doesn't seem really tied to profession or class.

 

[Celebrim]

There aren't hobbits or men or dwarves or goblins in middle-earth who are known for the same kinds of powers. Galadriel seems to have fairly powerful divination abilities (detect thoughts)...

Which is a 2nd level spell As I said, there is nothing that she did that suggests she is above 9th or 10th level at the most. Nondetection, divination, clairvoyance, locate object, etc. These are all low levels spells. In D&D terms I'd probably stat her out as a Cleric3/Sorcerer3/Mystic Theurge4 or something of the sort. Much of Galadriel's perceptiveness could simply be having quite a few ranks in Sense Motive, and an above average wisdom. Plus she's got that magic ring on her hand which probably helps out some.

Keep in mind that the main ability of the rings of power is it boosts the wearer's racial abilities. She's wearing an elf lords ring, containing within it the essense of the elvish race. So, it's rather natural that everything that a Tolkien elf is good at, she is but only more so. Compare with her spouse the almost equally old and almost equally noble Celeborn, who doesn't have her numinous aura. Other than boosting her racial abilities, Nenya's main ability seems to be to slow the effects of time in a wide radius around it (things decay more slowly), which in D&D terms is almost flavor text, plus possibly some sort of domain wide 'protection from evil' effect.

I won't go into all the details for the sake of brevity...

You don't have to. I've read the book 16 times. I've read the Similrillion 5 times. Lost Tales, Morgoth's Ring, The Lost Road, etc.

...but many of these proclivities seem limited to mostly elves (or the Istari), and when it is described, it is only described in the greatest and eldest of these races.

Yes, but in the Middle Earth 'magic' - or what we would recognize as magic - seems to be mostly limited to elves and the Istari and a few Numenoreans. The magic of the Dwarves seems limited to animating small objects, strengthening materials, and other things related to craft and skill - much of which might actually be technology as we understand it. You don't find in Wizard classed Hobbits, so of course anyone that can cast magic seems enormously powerful and wonderful to a hobbit.

So I would say that certainly indicates a racial proclivity that gets better with time. Maybe it is simply that the elves are the only characters in middle earth who can become wizards, but I find the immense self-restraint and mental resistance shown by the eldest elves perhaps the most telling example of something that doesn't seem really tied to profession or class.

Part of this is that in the Middle Earth, anyone who was born when the world was young has a superior attribute array. In Middle Earth, they just don't make them like they used to. But again, I don't see how age and experience isn't an indicator of increased level in D&D terms.

 

[Dwimmerlied]

I certainly can't see how Galadriel's traits couldn't be replicated completely by standard class.

 

[airwalkrr]

[MENTION=12460]
[MENTION=82545]dnoonan[/MENTION]; yeah, I can imagine how challenging this might be, especially coming up with something that everyone will agree will fit what it means to be more elfier/dwarfier/dragonbornier... I've had a brief look at these messageboards after any given playtest has been announced and almost every decision is met with what looks like hysteria.

Hysteria is a fair assessment. I am surprised when people react this way to open play tests, especially when the devs flat out admit they are trying stuff that could very well be horrible but just want to see what people think. Honesty if someone had pitched the idea of Munchkin to me as a game I don't think I would have understood the point on paper (and I did not get the point from just hearing other players' reports on it either). But playing the game made me understand. Sometimes ideas sound bad on paper but work splendidly in practice. It is rare but it does happen often enough that it is worth trying out a few bad-looking ideas in the hope that it will work better in practice than it reads.

As another case in point, I remember trying to wrap my head around attacks of opportunity for months after 3e came out. It just didn't make sense to me until I saw another DM who used them properly and suddenly everything clicked into place. Granted I think there were still some kinks to work out and it is one of the few things I believe 4e did much better than 3.5, but it was a clever system of balance for various actions.