What if races leveled up?

[doghead]

A fair bit of this discussion has gone over my head because I tend to play in the shallow end of the pool. The last few games I have run have been Epic Six. I might consider Epic Eight but probably no higher. I have played a few "teen" level characters, but none of the games have lasted long enough to get any real expertise at those levels. That been said, I have enjoyed reading this thread. It has been enlightening.

If I was looking to give the races a more distinctive feel, I would start with the racial characteristics. Most would probably come out with more ability bonuses than they have now. I would also look at the level progression, with the more energetic races levelling faster, but the longer lived races having the ability to level higher.

Of course, this raises all sorts of balance issues. Its not something I would do unless without giving significant consideration to the implications. But I d think that there may be situations where such an approach could be warranted.

With regards to class alone vs race and class, I do tend to think that characters such as Elrond and Galadriel could be explained in terms of their age/experience and class levels.

thotd

 

[airwalkrr]

To me it's not a question of whether something CAN be replicated with class abilities. It is a question of whether certain qualities are generally isolated to one race and whether those qualities seem to improve with age. In this context, while the abilities of Tolkien elves might be mimicked by wizard spells, the important fact is that no other races extant on middle earth, save for possibly the Istari, demonstrate similar abilities. And given that elder characters like Galadriel seem to exemplify those abilities most, that seems to me an example of natural Elven tendencies. Even elves without a ring have many similar abilities so I don't think you can chalk that up to powers of the ring of water alone.

 

[Celebrim]

Even elves without a ring have many similar abilities so I don't think you can chalk that up to powers of the ring of water alone.

Ok, like what?

But having certain abilities generally isolated to one race is not evidence that they aren't based on a class. It's just evidence that in that setting, only members of that race can enter into the class. For example, in 1e only humans could be Paladins. In my current game, only Idreth can be Akashic, and only characters with fey blood can take the Feyborn class. Likewise, having qualities improve with age is not evidence that they aren't based on class, and arguably its contrary evidence.

And given that elder characters like Galadriel seem to exemplify those abilities most, that seems to me an example of natural Elven tendencies.

I don't follow your logic at all. The contrary is logical. If the youngest, least powerful, least experienced elves also exhibited the abilities, then it would be evidence of race rather than class. Unfortunately, we have very limited interaction with anything but the elite of the elvish people - Galadriel (her dad is the elven equivalent of Adam), Elrond (after the death of Gil-Galad, right to claim the title of High King fell to him, though he would not claim it), Celeborn, Thranduil, Legolas (he's a Prince among the wood elves), Glorfindel (former champion of Gondolin, and a guy that slays Balrogs single handedly), etc. Even interactions with a character like Gildor, indicate he's a chief among his people. That characters like Galadriel, who we must presume in D&D terms to be high level, most exemplify those abilities seems to me to indicate that class and level are the strongest predictor of those abilities.

Granted, what we see of the elves indicate that they aren't necessarily D&D elves - they are taller than humans, they have higher Con than humans, etc. Tolkien elves are clearly not balanced with ordinary humans and could be a +LA 1 or 2 race, though its probably possible to assume that the disparity is simply due to being on average having 3 more levels than a human.

 

[GSHamster]

Does this issue actually exist for races other than Elves?

Humans don't really get "humanier" as they age. Dwarves don't really seem to do this either, nor Hobbits. Bilbo at 111 doesn't really seem to be "more hobbity" than he was as a young hobbit. In other literature, I don't really see this happening except where the change is an actual mutation (Niven's Protectors, for example).

If the problem is Elf-only, perhaps it would be best solved with a Elf-specific racial. At level 10, Elf gains specific feat A. At level 20, Elf gains specific feat B, and so on. It could be a special quirk of Elves that as they age and become more powerful, specific Elven traits become more and more pronounced.

Edit: After thinking about it, the only other races in fiction I can think of that really tie powers to age are Vampires and Dragons.

 

[airwalkrr]

I've just been using elves as an example. I could use examples of many other races, but elves are a model race for these types of discussions. I could come up with quite a few examples for dwarves, but the point is concept, not specific examples, and elves work well for this because they are perhaps best known.

 

[D'karr]

• Actually _deliver_ on the promise of "you are now 'elfier'" in terms of feel. After a while, an extra +1 Spot is just an incrementally bigger number on your character sheet. It doesn't deliver a feel.

What we wound up with was the heroic-tier racial feats. That's a low-key but straightforward implementation of the desire to get "elfier" over time. It absolutely makes racial level-ups a choice, not a given, though.

Me? I'd kinda like racial level-ups to be a given. But I don't for one second underestimate the difficulty in pulling that off.

David Noonan
DM Rampant

I won't go into all the details for the sake of brevity but many of these proclivities seem limited to mostly elves (or the Istari), and when it is described, it is only described in the greatest and eldest of these races. So I would say that certainly indicates a racial proclivity that gets better with time. <snip> I find the immense self-restraint and mental resistance shown by the eldest elves perhaps the most telling example of something that doesn't seem really tied to profession or class.

I certainly can't see how Galadriel's traits couldn't be replicated completely by standard class.

First of all [MENTION=82545]dnoonan[/MENTION], welcome "back". It has been a while since I saw comments from you on game design, and I must say that I missed them. I always thought your work on both 3e and 4e was great. I hope to see more comments from you.

I think that some, if not most of the problem is trying to think of this as a "bonus" of discreet mechanical abilities of some sort. That usually leads to a reduction of the solution to only a simple mechanical bonus. What if the mechanical bonus is one thing (racial feats / racial abilities, etc) but the flavor "bonus" is not necessarily always mechanical, and is variable. If these things are looked at more from the flavor side you can start expanding the "elfiness" of elfs, the "dwarfiness" of dwarves and the "humanness" of humans without always providing escalating mechanics. But you have to look at it from a campaign world perspective. That is where it gets touchy. If I define a racial enmity between orcs and dwarves in the "base" assumptions that starts to permeate into every campaign world.

What if these things are given regardless of class but are chosen by the players as nodes on a tree with multiple paths based on their race/culture? You could have an "arcane", "divine", "martial", "primal", "civilized", "barbaric", etc., branch for each of the races/cultures and the "benefits" don't need to be mechanical.
As long as the benefits are flavorful to the races and don't force the player to choose a mechanical benefit (feat) vs. a flavor option which is the current problem with racial feats.

 

[airwalkrr]

I think I could like the idea of having the racial bonus be a flavor or story element. Perhaps at 2nd-level a dwarf gets an honorary title, at 3rd-level becomes a respected member of his dwarven clan which means he is automatically considered to be on friendlier terms with them but worse terms with the clan's enemies, at 4th-level he can serve as an instructor or tutor to young dwarves, and so on like that. That could be kind of cool.