But the Abyss is likely way, way bigger than Hell. Since each layer is the size of a planet on both planes, you could fit hundreds of millions of demons on each of the 700+ layers, so united or divided, they would still overpower the devils if it were not for some outside force.
Not to mention that the devils is a splinter of the celestials that is still gathring troops.
AND the devils fight on hometurf more often where they can be permakilled.
So the devils numbers are likely underpopulating their 9 layers by a noticeable amount.
Therefore the numbers the demons send to the Blood War has to be a sliver of their population.
But the Abyss is likely way, way bigger than Hell. Since each layer is the size of a planet on both planes, you could fit hundreds of millions of demons on each of the 700+ layers, so united or divided, they would still overpower the devils if it were not for some outside force.
So? It doesn't matter how many more times there are of demons; the vast majority of them are fighting each other, and getting permanently destroyed, in the Abyss. Only a small fraction of the demons forms enough cohesion to wage the Blood War directly with devils.
Not to mention, the devils have far more effective, and powerful, leadership than demons. With RAW, Bel and Zariel can kick the poop out of Yeenoghu, Baphomet and even Orcus. And they're considered the weakest devils in the archdevil hierarchy.
Reading Descent into Avernus, Zariel literally pursues one-to-one combat with Demon Lords to defeat them single-handedly and rout their forces. She imprisoned Kostchiechie in this way.
Yes, that definitely is a huge flaw in the Demons, but the Devils are not completely without that factor. They're always plotting, scheming, and backstabbing each other.
True, but the hierarchy mostly keeps them in line. In the Avernus book, Bel is plotting against Zariel but is bound against taking any direct action against her. There are countless such contracts and oaths sworn to keep peace in this way, so direct war between layers is not common.
True, but the hierarchy mostly keeps them in line. In the Avernus book, Bel is plotting against Zariel but is bound against taking any direct action against her. There are countless such contracts and oaths sworn to keep peace in this way, so direct war between layers is not common.
Yeah, it's not common, (as in it doesn't happen often), but it certainly happens. Have you ever looked at the list of Archdevils who are/have plotting/plotted against fellow archdevils, or even Asmodeus? Mephistopheles, Moloch, technically Glasya, etc.
I remember watching in a Matthew Colville episode (I don't remember which one), a paraphrased quote he took from a book series where there was a war between law and chaos. It went along the lines of how chaotic creatures (demons) are more predictable and stable than the lawful ones (devils). Demons always only fight for themselves, while devils work together but betray each other whenever they get the opportunity. In some ways, demons are more lawful than devils, at least in societal structure.
Yeah, it's not common, (as in it doesn't happen often), but it certainly happens. Have you ever looked at the list of Archdevils who are/have plotting/plotted against fellow archdevils, or even Asmodeus? Mephistopheles, Moloch, technically Glasya, etc.
The same guy put out Emirikol's Guide to Devils on DMs Guild, and it is a fantastic resource, but keep in mind it predates Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes and Descent into Avernus and therefore doesn't have the info from those books. Instead it presents an amalgalm of all lore from every edition (most significantly, the Ancient Baatorians of 2E and the rebellion against the god He Who Was from 4E are both incorporated) and statblocks for devils from previous editions (a few of which have been officially updated to 5E since).
So? It doesn't matter how many more times there are of demons; the vast majority of them are fighting each other, and getting permanently destroyed, in the Abyss. Only a small fraction of the demons forms enough cohesion to wage the Blood War directly with devils.
Not to mention, the devils have far more effective, and powerful, leadership than demons. With RAW, Bel and Zariel can kick the poop out of Yeenoghu, Baphomet and even Orcus. And they're considered the weakest devils in the archdevil hierarchy.
Reading Descent into Avernus, Zariel literally pursues one-to-one combat with Demon Lords to defeat them single-handedly and rout their forces. She imprisoned Kostchiechie in this way.
I can understand her imprisoning K in DiA and that makes sense, but Zariel didn't kill Kostchtchie, she trapped him. Not to mention that demigods killing far more powerful true gods does happen in D&D, circumstances have a lot to do with it. And all the Archdevils are only given the power Asmodeus grants & he can take it away as he wishes. Kostchtchie is also not the most powerful demon lord (just like Zariel isn't the most powerful Archdevil). Looking at some of his better designed statblocks:
They're big, but so are all demon lords. I think demons are underrated in respect to how they can be organized and strategic when they want to. With INT 25, demon lords should do more than pettily war for millions of years with each other never getting anything done because they can't organize their armies. Yes, most are completely chaotic but Demon Lords are able to fix that and were it not for some outside force, even with a few dozen demon lords affecting the blood war they would still overpower devils, if not Asmodeus himself.
Asmodeus is of course the deciding factor, if the demons suddenly gained power (E.G Orcus retrieves his lost divinity and becomes a full fledged god again) they would sweep through hell. The balance of the Blood War hangs on a thread.
I don't have too much knowledge on the Blood War, but I'll weigh in briefly. It was believed to have been briefly stopped when Asmodeus abosrb the divine power of Azuth and pushed the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos, but it soon started up again.
The Blood War ending would be chaos, to be sure. It would be difficult for the celestials, as they would have to break their alignment and the demands of good and justice (unless they could find a loophole there, as it could be argued that fighting against fiends is good and just, as it would preserve order and the Upper Planes, and the Material Plane).
With RAW, Bel and Zariel can kick the poop out of Yeenoghu, Baphomet and even Orcus. And they're considered the weakest devils in the archdevil hierarchy.
Which I think just shows that in 5e the place in the infernal hierarchy does not correlate with their personal CR. Zariel is probably already one of the highest CR archdevils despite only being lord of the first. Otherwise we'd have them eclipsing Tiamat before even reaching Mephistopheles
I don't have too much knowledge on the Blood War, but I'll weigh in briefly. It was believed to have been briefly stopped when Asmodeus abosrb the divine power of Azuth and pushed the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos, but it soon started up again.
The Blood War ending would be chaos, to be sure. It would be difficult for the celestials, as they would have to break their alignment and the demands of good and justice (unless they could find a loophole there, as it could be argued that fighting against fiends is good and just, as it would preserve order and the Upper Planes, and the Material Plane).
But then it didn't end because one side had really won the war, but just because they became to separated to wage war on one another.
One side truly winning would irrevocably shift the fundamental axis of existences toward law or chaos. If the devils would win and law would saturate the cosmos on a fundamental level, one could expect lesser chaos aligned planes becoming less chaotic and more neutral while the true planes of chaos (and their inhabitants) would become sickly and weakened over time -, poisoned by reality starting to turn against them at it's most fundamental level.
If the devils were patient enough slaad and chaotic celestials might die out without them having to launch any attacks to do them in.
I can understand her imprisoning K in DiA and that makes sense, but Zariel didn't kill Kostchtchie, she trapped him. Not to mention that demigods killing far more powerful true gods does happen in D&D, circumstances have a lot to do with it. And all the Archdevils are only given the power Asmodeus grants & he can take it away as he wishes. Kostchtchie is also not the most powerful demon lord (just like Zariel isn't the most powerful Archdevil). Looking at some of his better designed statblocks:
They're big, but so are all demon lords. I think demons are underrated in respect to how they can be organized and strategic when they want to. With INT 25, demon lords should do more than pettily war for millions of years with each other never getting anything done because they can't organize their armies. Yes, most are completely chaotic but Demon Lords are able to fix that and were it not for some outside force, even with a few dozen demon lords affecting the blood war they would still overpower devils, if not Asmodeus himself.
Asmodeus is of course the deciding factor, if the demons suddenly gained power (E.G Orcus retrieves his lost divinity and becomes a full fledged god again) they would sweep through hell. The balance of the Blood War hangs on a thread.
I gotta ignore the other statblocks you mention, because we are talking about 5E here. Second, Zariel doesn't kill Kostchiechie on purpose; if she did, he would just reform in the Abyss. She purposefully imprisoned him instead.
You're giving way to much credit to the Demon Lords here; sure they're intelligence, even wise if you look at their stats. But their hopelessly ambitious, cruel and inconsistent. They simply aren't capable of holding together an alliance with another Demon Lord for long, because they are always thinking "When is the right moment for me to stab him in the back so only I'm in charge?" And they're ALL thinking that, and eventually one moves and the whole thing devolves into infighting. They're all extremely intelligent, but they lack the inherent ability of the devils to organize themselves in any way that lasts longer (or larger) than a brief alliance to invade hell.
Demon Lords don't even share the same idea about what conquering the Multiverse would even look like. Yeenoghu just wants to burn and destroy, Orcus wants an undead wasteland, Juiblex wants to eat everything, Graz'zt wants a big violent orgy... their goals are extremely contradictory. The devils though have the same goal; cold, merciless domination.
Plus demon princes have to defend their layers. The more layers they have, the more of their army that must stay behind.
Therefore only the strongest or weakest demon lords would be involved in the blood war at any given time. The strongest might have a spare army. The weakest have nothing to defend.
So Avernus is mostly attacked by armies of chumps and rejects.
