What If: The Greyhawk Wars Never Happened?

Knightfall

World of Kulan DM
Okay, here's my second "What If" question. A lot of Greyhawk fans didn't like Greyhawk Wars and how it changed the setting. So, what if it never happened?

What would be different? What would be the same? Would it have affected your 3e Greyhawk campaigns at all?

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airwalkrr

Adventurer
I wouldn't be running Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk for my group right now; that's certain. I imagine I would be running something else Greyhawky involving Iuz though. So in that respect, very little is different. The Greyhawk Wars just made Greyhawk a little bit more fantastic by opening more portals to the outer planes and busting out powerful artifacts. But I always liked the politics the Wars introduced to the setting which were noticeably absent before.
 

CruelSummerLord

First Post
Oh man, I have been waiting for a topic like this for such a long time. I absolutely hate, loathe and despise From the Ashes, and I have all sorts of ideas for an alternate take. Now, yes, the Greyhawk Wars did happen-with the return of Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood, not to mention the invasions Against the Giants, as well as the intrigues going on between the Great Kingdom and the Iron League, to be overlooked-but here's an alternate (and far better) take than what officially happened...

Most people do not realize it, but the first blows of the Greyhawk Wars were in fact struck in the 570s CY, when the machinations of Eclavdra the drow priestess were thwarted by a brave group of heroes. As part of her plan to dethrone the priesthood of Lolth and make herself ruler of the vault of Erelhei-Cinlu, Eclavdra had rallied a number of giants under the charismatic King Snurre Iron Belly, who was a stupid dolt but a fearsome warrior and inspiring leader. Snurre would serve as the figurehead in her invasion of the human surface lands, whereby she would establish a puppet kingdom and use the power she gained from it to establish her rule over her fellow drow.

All fell to ruin, however, when Snurre and the other giant leaders were slain. The giants were still eager for war, but they had no leadership and no guidance. The invasions of Geoff, the Yeomanry and Sterich were thus poorly organized and led, allowing the good peoples of the western Sheldomar to survive and eventually claim victory, although at a terrible cost, especially considering that Keoland did not come to their aid until several months after the invasions began, as part of its long-term desire to weaken the other realms of the Sheldomar and draw them more closely under its rule.

Now, in the years after the war, the heavily damaged realms of Geoff and Sterich are outraged at Keoland's double-dealing, and speak longly and loudly of outright secession from the suzerainty of the Throne of the Lion, with Keoland in its turn threatening war if its feudal rights are not respected. King Kimbertos is growing exceedingly unpopular even among native Keoish for his mishandling of the conflict, as well as with his various social reforms, which do not sit well with many people.

The land of Bissel, suffering from deep social rot and internal decay, was utterly crushed by a surprise invasion of Ket, and it was carved up between the dwarves of the Yatils, the Kettites, the Velunese, and the Gran Marchians like a carcass being devoured by wolves. What is left of Bissel is now slowly falling to pieces, worn by years of self-defeat and despair, even as its citizens convert en masse to the religions of the Baklunish and Ket gains a foothold in the Flanaess proper. What little remains of Bissel now survives mainly as a rump occupied by Gran March, and will likely become part of the nation proper before long.

The Ulek states were generally powerless to help their western brethren, as they had to rally to defend themselves against the newly organized humanoids of the Pomarj, who had rallied around the murderous half-orc known as Turrosh Mak. A brilliant tactician and commander, Mak all but wiped out the Wild Coast and even threatened the City of Greyhawk itself, until the Principality of Ulek thwarted their invasion attempts. Low-level fighting remains persistent in the Uleks to this day, and the Uleks are outraged at Celene's refusal to aid them, although the elves state that they do not wish to see any elves die in humanity's wars.

The Shield Lands were destroyed by the Horned Society and certain allies in the Bandit Kingdoms in some of the bloodiest and most brutal fighting of the entire wars, and the minions of evil were forced to pay in blood for every inch of ground they gained on the Knights of the Shield. Even as Furyondy and Greyhawk stood by, feeling no duty or obligation to the Knights and eager to take any scraps for themselves, the Shield Landers fought to the last man and died as true heroes. Furyondy was in its turn attacked, and several more years of vicious fighting ensued, until a tense stalemate finally ended with a tense standoff across a demilitarized zone between the borders of Furyondy and the newly christened Horned Empire.

As for Iuz, many of the machinations of the Lord of Pain had been attempts for him to set his foes against one another, but he neglected the cancer that was developing among his own ranks. Enraged at his subverting the worship of many of the humanoids who served in his armies, the gods of Gruumsh, Maglubiyet and the other humanoid gods stirred up fierce hatreds and conflicts between humanoids who remained loyal to Iuz and those who rediscovered their old heritage. Iuz's realm disintegrated in bloody interracial and intraracial fighting, and the invasion of the Horned Society seemed to seal the fate of the Lord of Pain...or did it?

Iuz gathered together his most trusted servants in the Boneheart, and told them of the ghoulish contest he had planned. Halga and Null would remain in Dorakaa, attempting to retake control of Iuz's realm. In the meantime, the rest of his servants were to spread across the Flanaess and cause as much mayhem and destruction in Iuz's name as they could, carving out their own small realms to conquer and rule. The territories they carved out, the Cells of Iuz, would be judged by Iuz when he returned from the Abyss (where pressing matters demanded his attention) and the one he deemed most successful would become the seat of his new realm. The member of the Boneheart who won the contest would receive immortality as Iuz's most favored servant.

In the Cairn Hills, the Gull Cliffs, the Lorridges, the lands of the Tiger Nomads, the Phostwood, the Hestmark Highlands, and many other places, the followers of Iuz brought misery and death as they carved out their Cells, adding to the chaos of the Greyhawk Wars to make their master proud.

Not to be outdone by his fellow tyrants, Sevvord Redbeard, lord of the brutal Hold of Stonefist, struck at the lands of Tenh and the Ice Barbarians. Tenh was simultaneously attacked by the Theocracy of the Pale, which sought to impose its religion by any means necessary, and fought a horrible war on two fronts. Through courage and tenacity, the Tenha claimed victory over the Fists, but parts of their southern territory were occupied by the Pale, occupying the city of Redspan and putting Atherstone under siege. Redbeard had more success against the Ice Barbarians, where the intrigues of the Scarlet Brotherhood left King Lolgoff Bearhair unable to coordinate a proper response, which led Redbeard to seize the entire Taival Tundra as Stonefist territory. Redbeard ordered a road to be built across his new territory, marking it with grisly milestones-for every mile, an Ice Barbarian would be impaled on a long pole, used as a horrific milestone.

The long-standing feud between Nyrond, the Iron League and the Great Kingdom of Aerdy finally erupted into all-out war when Ivid V accomplished the impossible and united the whole of his realm to make war upon his most hated of foes. Attacking all of his enemies at once, Ivid very nearly destroyed them all, but he overlooked the internal rage and dissent that was building against him in Rauxes, until he finally succumbed to the madness and the diabolical pact his forefathers had made to seize their ill-gotten throne. As the Great Kingdom collapsed in an orgy of bloodletting, Idee and Almor were destroyed, their governments in exile seeking refuge in Rel Mord.

Nyrond itself was perilously close to bankruptcy, and almost fell into civil war after Prince Sewarndt attempted to murder King Archbold, a war which was narrowly averted when Crown Prince Lynwerd returned in time to thwart his treacherous brother and seize the throne. The newly crowned King Lynwerd found himself confronted with a host of problems, most notably the Theocracy of the Pale occupying his northern lands, and the Urnst states to the west which had long resented Nyrond's powerful shadow looming over them, and were now eager to exploit their advantages over the weakened kingdom...

The See of Medegia collapsed into anarchy, and to this day remains a no-man's land of bandits, humanoids, and petty warlords. As the city of Rel Astra and the Sea Barons suddenly found themselves independent, the North and South Provinces formed themselves into the Great Kingdom of Northern Aerdy and the United Kingdom of Ahlissa, with the former rulers of both provinces declaring themselves royalty. They now snipe and intrigue with one another, each one seeking to proclaim themselves the true heir to the Aerdy legacy.

The lands of Irongate, Sunndi and Onnwal all survived the wars with Aerdy, although heavily damaged. Almor now clings to Chathold as its nominal capital, although most of the lands around remain ruined and destroyed, even as Idee was fully absorbed into the newly formed land of Ahlissa.

All three of these lands, as well as the Hold of the Sea Princes, suffered invasions by hordes of murderous barbarians from the Amedio Jungle, who had apparently sought to invade the lands of their own volition. In truth, they were smuggled there by the Scarlet Brotherhood, who sought to use the savages of Amedio as expendable fodder and cover for their true goals.

Through careful intrigue and deception, the Scarlet Sign is now deeply entwined in the lands of the Lordship of the Isles and the Hold of the Sea Princes, both of whom maintain a great deal of independence, but are nonetheless beholden to the greater schemes of the Scarlet Brotherhood, even as it spreads its tentacles to the barbarians of the Thillonrian Peninsula, the lands of Sunndi and Urnst, and other realms where the Suel heritage remains strong, seeking to convert the realms to lands where the Suel rule over all, and incorporating them into the Great and Hidden Empire, heir to the legacy of the lost Suel Imperium. What the Brotherhood lacks in military prowess, it more than makes up for in secrecy, intellect and patience.

And yet...the Flanaess survived. For all the darkness that arose during the Greyhawk Wars, in many cases Good triumphed as often as Evil. Much was lost and destroyed forevermore, but much more was restored and rebuilt. In many small ways, that remain overlooked by society at large, people aided one another, recovered from their losses, and survived even the most horrific of times. Unsung heroes, forgotten legends, and unlikely allies came together, to stand against the darkness.

Much remains dark, but much remains light. Two become one, good and evil persist, black and white become grey.

So, then, is the truth of the Greyhawk Wars.
 


jdsivyer

First Post
Oh man, I have been waiting for a topic like this for such a long time. I absolutely hate, loathe and despise From the Ashes,

Although I have to admit your take on GH post 575 is pretty damn interesting, well thought out and kinda cool (thanks so much for posting it! :) ), I still find myself slightly curious as to why you hate FTA with so much passion.

I'm not saying you have to like it (obviously you don't), but my curious nature has got me...well...curious ;)
 

My campaign is somewhat similar to CSL's.

In the West, the destruction of the giants and the death of Lolth prevented the giants from launching a major invasion of Geoff and Sterich. These two lands, and Gran March, are loosely rules from Keoland, a center of good and learning in the West.

Bissel is at war, heavily invaded by Ket -- this is no more border bickering, but total war. Flush with funds of unknown origins (from guess who?), Ket has hired mercenaries from Perrenland and Ull.

On the other side, Gran March, the Knights of the Watch, and Velunese heavy cavalry have helped Bissel's powerful Border Companies stem the invasion. As Bissel is winning the war, Ket has become desparate, deploying orcs, goblinoids, giants, and even werewolves into Bissel to try to disrupt its political and social fabric.

Meanwhile, the Empire of Iuz fights the Wolf Nomads, harries the Rovers of the Barrens and the Vesve, and has crushed the Horned Society and the Knights of Shielding. The surviving Hierarchs of the Horned Society spin plots against their archenemy. The Bandit Kingdoms are as they ever were. Iuz's tenticles may now be reaching towards the distant, poor, backwater of Blackmoor . . . whatever could be of interest there.

Furyondy fights Iuz along the Veng and Whyestil Lake, while in the Vesve, Veluna and Highfolk are beginning to be hard pressed.

Turrock Mas? Who's that? Another petty warlord on the Wild Coast, perhaps, where things look pretty much like they did in the original gazeteer. Except that Hardby is an independent spice trading entrepot, an uneasy protectorate of Greyhawk.

Dyvers, the city of clockwork mechanisms, also rivals Greyhawk City.

Verbobonc's troubles surely are over since Prince Thrommel was rescued a decade ago . . .

In the South, the Holds of the Sea Princes have been rocked by civil war and slave revolts. Some say a shadowy Suloise group called the Scarlet Brotherhood is somehow involved. Trade with the isolate city of Cauldron is now nearly non-existant due to the anarchy on the Azure Sea.

Trade from the East -- Rel Astra -- is also blocked by sea. Some say a northern sea route is being tried, but for now, trade trickles through Ahlissa, or comes by magic from the gate between Rel Astra and Greyhawk.

After a decade of civil war, the Great Kingdom is divided, with the major powers being Rel Astra and Solnor Compact, the Iron League, the North Kingdom, and Ahlissa. Medegia is depopulated by the four horsemen of the apocalypse -- plague, pestilence, famine, and war. Almor and Rauxes similarly have disappeared into the dust bin of history.

That's about it. My campaign takes place in and around Bissel, for the most part.
 

Truth Seeker

Adventurer
Well, some folks didn't like it, I had no problem with it. Cause it was the only world setting I dealt with for a while. Then I heard about FR.

But I am a Greyhawker.

Change comes, when it does...and life moves on.
Oh man, I have been waiting for a topic like this for such a long time. I absolutely hate, loathe and despise From the Ashes, and I have all sorts of ideas for an alternate take. Now, yes, the Greyhawk Wars did happen-with the return of Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood, not to mention the invasions Against the Giants, as well as the intrigues going on between the Great Kingdom and the Iron League, to be overlooked-but here's an alternate (and far better) take than what officially happened...

Most people do not realize it, but the first blows of the Greyhawk Wars were in fact struck in the 570s CY, when the machinations of Eclavdra the drow priestess were thwarted by a brave group of heroes. As part of her plan to dethrone the priesthood of Lolth and make herself ruler of the vault of Erelhei-Cinlu, Eclavdra had rallied a number of giants under the charismatic King Snurre Iron Belly, who was a stupid dolt but a fearsome warrior and inspiring leader. Snurre would serve as the figurehead in her invasion of the human surface lands, whereby she would establish a puppet kingdom and use the power she gained from it to establish her rule over her fellow drow.

All fell to ruin, however, when Snurre and the other giant leaders were slain. The giants were still eager for war, but they had no leadership and no guidance. The invasions of Geoff, the Yeomanry and Sterich were thus poorly organized and led, allowing the good peoples of the western Sheldomar to survive and eventually claim victory, although at a terrible cost, especially considering that Keoland did not come to their aid until several months after the invasions began, as part of its long-term desire to weaken the other realms of the Sheldomar and draw them more closely under its rule.

Now, in the years after the war, the heavily damaged realms of Geoff and Sterich are outraged at Keoland's double-dealing, and speak longly and loudly of outright secession from the suzerainty of the Throne of the Lion, with Keoland in its turn threatening war if its feudal rights are not respected. King Kimbertos is growing exceedingly unpopular even among native Keoish for his mishandling of the conflict, as well as with his various social reforms, which do not sit well with many people.

The land of Bissel, suffering from deep social rot and internal decay, was utterly crushed by a surprise invasion of Ket, and it was carved up between the dwarves of the Yatils, the Kettites, the Velunese, and the Gran Marchians like a carcass being devoured by wolves. What is left of Bissel is now slowly falling to pieces, worn by years of self-defeat and despair, even as its citizens convert en masse to the religions of the Baklunish and Ket gains a foothold in the Flanaess proper. What little remains of Bissel now survives mainly as a rump occupied by Gran March, and will likely become part of the nation proper before long.

The Ulek states were generally powerless to help their western brethren, as they had to rally to defend themselves against the newly organized humanoids of the Pomarj, who had rallied around the murderous half-orc known as Turrosh Mak. A brilliant tactician and commander, Mak all but wiped out the Wild Coast and even threatened the City of Greyhawk itself, until the Principality of Ulek thwarted their invasion attempts. Low-level fighting remains persistent in the Uleks to this day, and the Uleks are outraged at Celene's refusal to aid them, although the elves state that they do not wish to see any elves die in humanity's wars.

The Shield Lands were destroyed by the Horned Society and certain allies in the Bandit Kingdoms in some of the bloodiest and most brutal fighting of the entire wars, and the minions of evil were forced to pay in blood for every inch of ground they gained on the Knights of the Shield. Even as Furyondy and Greyhawk stood by, feeling no duty or obligation to the Knights and eager to take any scraps for themselves, the Shield Landers fought to the last man and died as true heroes. Furyondy was in its turn attacked, and several more years of vicious fighting ensued, until a tense stalemate finally ended with a tense standoff across a demilitarized zone between the borders of Furyondy and the newly christened Horned Empire.

As for Iuz, many of the machinations of the Lord of Pain had been attempts for him to set his foes against one another, but he neglected the cancer that was developing among his own ranks. Enraged at his subverting the worship of many of the humanoids who served in his armies, the gods of Gruumsh, Maglubiyet and the other humanoid gods stirred up fierce hatreds and conflicts between humanoids who remained loyal to Iuz and those who rediscovered their old heritage. Iuz's realm disintegrated in bloody interracial and intraracial fighting, and the invasion of the Horned Society seemed to seal the fate of the Lord of Pain...or did it?

Iuz gathered together his most trusted servants in the Boneheart, and told them of the ghoulish contest he had planned. Halga and Null would remain in Dorakaa, attempting to retake control of Iuz's realm. In the meantime, the rest of his servants were to spread across the Flanaess and cause as much mayhem and destruction in Iuz's name as they could, carving out their own small realms to conquer and rule. The territories they carved out, the Cells of Iuz, would be judged by Iuz when he returned from the Abyss (where pressing matters demanded his attention) and the one he deemed most successful would become the seat of his new realm. The member of the Boneheart who won the contest would receive immortality as Iuz's most favored servant.

In the Cairn Hills, the Gull Cliffs, the Lorridges, the lands of the Tiger Nomads, the Phostwood, the Hestmark Highlands, and many other places, the followers of Iuz brought misery and death as they carved out their Cells, adding to the chaos of the Greyhawk Wars to make their master proud.

Not to be outdone by his fellow tyrants, Sevvord Redbeard, lord of the brutal Hold of Stonefist, struck at the lands of Tenh and the Ice Barbarians. Tenh was simultaneously attacked by the Theocracy of the Pale, which sought to impose its religion by any means necessary, and fought a horrible war on two fronts. Through courage and tenacity, the Tenha claimed victory over the Fists, but parts of their southern territory were occupied by the Pale, occupying the city of Redspan and putting Atherstone under siege. Redbeard had more success against the Ice Barbarians, where the intrigues of the Scarlet Brotherhood left King Lolgoff Bearhair unable to coordinate a proper response, which led Redbeard to seize the entire Taival Tundra as Stonefist territory. Redbeard ordered a road to be built across his new territory, marking it with grisly milestones-for every mile, an Ice Barbarian would be impaled on a long pole, used as a horrific milestone.

The long-standing feud between Nyrond, the Iron League and the Great Kingdom of Aerdy finally erupted into all-out war when Ivid V accomplished the impossible and united the whole of his realm to make war upon his most hated of foes. Attacking all of his enemies at once, Ivid very nearly destroyed them all, but he overlooked the internal rage and dissent that was building against him in Rauxes, until he finally succumbed to the madness and the diabolical pact his forefathers had made to seize their ill-gotten throne. As the Great Kingdom collapsed in an orgy of bloodletting, Idee and Almor were destroyed, their governments in exile seeking refuge in Rel Mord.

Nyrond itself was perilously close to bankruptcy, and almost fell into civil war after Prince Sewarndt attempted to murder King Archbold, a war which was narrowly averted when Crown Prince Lynwerd returned in time to thwart his treacherous brother and seize the throne. The newly crowned King Lynwerd found himself confronted with a host of problems, most notably the Theocracy of the Pale occupying his northern lands, and the Urnst states to the west which had long resented Nyrond's powerful shadow looming over them, and were now eager to exploit their advantages over the weakened kingdom...

The See of Medegia collapsed into anarchy, and to this day remains a no-man's land of bandits, humanoids, and petty warlords. As the city of Rel Astra and the Sea Barons suddenly found themselves independent, the North and South Provinces formed themselves into the Great Kingdom of Northern Aerdy and the United Kingdom of Ahlissa, with the former rulers of both provinces declaring themselves royalty. They now snipe and intrigue with one another, each one seeking to proclaim themselves the true heir to the Aerdy legacy.

The lands of Irongate, Sunndi and Onnwal all survived the wars with Aerdy, although heavily damaged. Almor now clings to Chathold as its nominal capital, although most of the lands around remain ruined and destroyed, even as Idee was fully absorbed into the newly formed land of Ahlissa.

All three of these lands, as well as the Hold of the Sea Princes, suffered invasions by hordes of murderous barbarians from the Amedio Jungle, who had apparently sought to invade the lands of their own volition. In truth, they were smuggled there by the Scarlet Brotherhood, who sought to use the savages of Amedio as expendable fodder and cover for their true goals.

Through careful intrigue and deception, the Scarlet Sign is now deeply entwined in the lands of the Lordship of the Isles and the Hold of the Sea Princes, both of whom maintain a great deal of independence, but are nonetheless beholden to the greater schemes of the Scarlet Brotherhood, even as it spreads its tentacles to the barbarians of the Thillonrian Peninsula, the lands of Sunndi and Urnst, and other realms where the Suel heritage remains strong, seeking to convert the realms to lands where the Suel rule over all, and incorporating them into the Great and Hidden Empire, heir to the legacy of the lost Suel Imperium. What the Brotherhood lacks in military prowess, it more than makes up for in secrecy, intellect and patience.

And yet...the Flanaess survived. For all the darkness that arose during the Greyhawk Wars, in many cases Good triumphed as often as Evil. Much was lost and destroyed forevermore, but much more was restored and rebuilt. In many small ways, that remain overlooked by society at large, people aided one another, recovered from their losses, and survived even the most horrific of times. Unsung heroes, forgotten legends, and unlikely allies came together, to stand against the darkness.

Much remains dark, but much remains light. Two become one, good and evil persist, black and white become grey.

So, then, is the truth of the Greyhawk Wars.
 

CruelSummerLord

First Post
Wow. That's a lot of detail. You've really thought this over, CSL.


Heh, thanks. I actually have a lot more material just like it at www.canonfire.com. Go there, enter my username into the search engine, and there you go. Treatises on every major nation in the Flanaess, analyses of the military, profiles of various rulers, takes on history, travel guides, writings on many of the major religions and races are all there for anyone who's interested.

Although I have to admit your take on GH post 575 is pretty damn interesting, well thought out and kinda cool (thanks so much for posting it! :) ), I still find myself slightly curious as to why you hate FTA with so much passion.

I'm not saying you have to like it (obviously you don't), but my curious nature has got me...well...curious ;)

My pleasure.

One of the major conventions that developed for Greyhawk as it was played by its fans was that when major changes occur, they occur in modules, not in novels or other similar game products. Classic modules like Against the Giants, the Temple of Elemental Evil, the Slave Lords, or the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun all have the potential to majorly influence the development of your campaign, depending on how it plays out. The thing was, though, that your campaign specifically decided how it was going to play out. There was no specific timeline advancement. When the bad guys hatched a major plot, your PCs had a chance to nip it in the bud and prevent the disaster from ever happening.

Another major convention was that the world was a firm shade of grey. Factions for both good and evil existed, but they held one another in check and failed just as often as they succeeded. Indeed, many realms and power groups were less concerned with promoting good or evil than they were in promoting their own personal interests or other specific goals-the Harpers wouldn't find much reception if they were established in Greyhawk, and the Circle of Eight was more interested in preventing any one power from gaining dominance over the Flanaess, than in working for abstract notions of good and evil.

FtA flushed both of these notions down the toilet. All of a sudden, by simple canonical fiat, the world becomes starkly black and white as many nations are destroyed. Perfectly good adventuring locales like Geoff, Sterich, Tenh, the Bandit Kingdoms, the Wild Coast, the Hold of the Sea Princes, Idee and Onnwal were all ruined, along with any campaigns you or your group might have been running there. The Scarlet Brotherhood suddenly operated openly and brutally, and I have trouble seeing how anyone not of Suel ancestry could adventure there without immediately being thrown in chains.

Your gaming group had no chance at all to prevent any of this from happening, as it was simply assumed to have occured. The character of the setting changed radically, as most realms were hanging on by the skin of their teeth, and Iuz, the Scarlet Brotherhood, and Turrosh Mak were all poised to conquer even more territory, while most of the forces of good had all they could handle just trying to keep from collapsing.

From there, subsequent writers like Erik Mona and Gary Holian had to try and make Greyhawk more "grey" again and reverse some of the dramatic changes made by FtA, but even then FtA remained canon and if you wanted to continue to use official canon in your games (and most Greyhawk fans are sticklers for this sort of thing, even if I'm not), you were pretty much stuck with it. Even then, for all their best efforts and very real commitment to the setting, Holian, Mona and company had to resort to some of the arbitrary declarations by company fiat to restore things to normal.

In short, FtA brought a lot of unnecessary and unwelcome changes that altered the setting for the worse and screwed up many important elements of it. I don't blame Carl Sargent (FtA's author) for this so much anymore as I do Jeff Grubb and the rest of the TSR crew at the time, who were left wondering what to do with Greyhawk once Gary Gygax had left the company. In keeping with the boneheaded decision-making that characterized TSR at the time, Grubb suggested that they "blow Greyhawk up".

I've never been impressed with anything Grubb has written aside from his contributions to the Dragonlance saga, and his track record didn't improve with Greyhawk, either.

Carl Sargent was left holding the bag, and as a result Greyhawk's fan base is divided among those who hate FtA and those who love or at least accept it, among many other divisions. -_-

So yeah, I have some reason to be bitter.
 

jdsivyer

First Post
...My pleasure.

One of the major conventions that developed for Greyhawk as it was played by its fans was that when major changes occur, they occur in modules, not in novels or other similar game products...Another major convention was that the world was a firm shade of grey...FtA flushed both of these notions down the toilet. All of a sudden, by simple canonical fiat, the world becomes starkly black and white as many nations are destroyed...From there, subsequent writers like Erik Mona and Gary Holian had to try and make Greyhawk more "grey" again and reverse some of the dramatic changes made by FtA...In short, FtA brought a lot of unnecessary and unwelcome changes that altered the setting for the worse and screwed up many important elements of it. I don't blame Carl Sargent (FtA's author) for this so much anymore as I do Jeff Grubb and the rest of the TSR crew at the time, who were left wondering what to do with Greyhawk once Gary Gygax had left the company...Carl Sargent was left holding the bag, and as a result Greyhawk's fan base is divided among those who hate FtA and those who love or at least accept it, among many other divisions...So yeah, I have some reason to be bitter.

Thanks so much for the reply :)

And, I have to say, that was a pretty damn good explanation as to why you're not even CLOSE to being a fan of FtA.

I really appreciate you taking the time to put it down, thanks :)
 

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