What if we removed the half-level bonus to everything?

[Saeviomagy]

You know what I just realised.

It would be bloody awesome if we removed the half level bonus from PCs, then removed the half level bonus from NPCS, then ALSO removed the magic item padding (1/5th level) from NPCS, and finally got rid of +x to hit and +x to defense from items. No more +5 magic armor. Magic weapons keep their damage and crit bonus, but not their hit bonus. Amulets just have a secondary effect, no +x to all defenses.

That solves the problem of "the main difference between the 30th level fighter and the 1st level fighter is the +6 from his sword". It also lets everyone not have to worry so much that their weapon, armor and amulet aren't up to date.

Finally it gets rid of those boring +x weapons and armor, which always replace that cool armor you got last level. A property will often be better than +1 to damage and an extra 1d6 on crits.

 

[DracoSuave]

Hell. Let's just remove levels entirely. Then you can mix kobolds and tarrasques in the same encounter and you don't have to do any math at all!

Well... you'd have to reduce the terrasques to level 0... but I mean that won't matter cause everything will be level 0!

 

[DracoSuave]

Less sarcasticly: The 1/2 level to AC and defenses isn't a sacred cow of 3rd edition. It's a slaughtering of a sacred cow, that being that magic items are more important than character experience in determining your ability to avoid damage. Any discussion on getting rid of it isn't going after a sacred cow of D&D, but rather one of the innovations of 4th edition. By removing it, you're -embracing- a sacred cow of 3rd edition, not removing one.

But don't let that stop you. Continue.

 

[77IM]

Removing magic item bonuses is not a bad idea, but to compensate for the loss of the 1/6 attack/defense bonus from magic items, monsters should suffer a penalty of 2/3 level to attack and defense instead of 1/2 level.

The loss of weapon/implement bonuses also affects damage. You may want to add that back in (+1/6 level to damage for all PCs) or trim the monster's hit points a smidge to compensate (maybe, 10% less or so?).

-- 77IM

 

[DracoSuave]

1) You get +1 magic items with properties at level 1, not level 6.
2) It's 1/5 levels, not 1/6.
3) You'd have to shave off 7/10ths of a monster's attack bonus, not 2/3rds, not accounting for level 1.
4) The math is too stupid to attempt with each monster for hps. Too much fiddling algebra.
5) Is it more fun for the players?

If you're removing every bonus that's level based from the game, wouldn't you just take the monster role and use -that- as the basis for their attack points and hps?
At this point the only way you do more damage is by increasing your attribute, by getting the occasional better power, and by acquiring certain magic item bonuses that become extremely valuable. So, let's just do away with the even levels, fold feat-get and utility get into the odd levels, and alter the table to accomodate?

 

[Piratecat]

Less sarcasticly: ...But don't let that stop you. Continue.

Everyone please keep the snark under control. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you need to stray into rudeness.

Thanks.

 

[tatoolo]

(Note: this is my first post on this forum, so play nice! On top of that, I've only been playing D&D for a month or so, so perhaps hearing the opinion of someone new to the game might help shed some light on the debate!)

I've heard that one thing 4E has done well is simplifying things, and it seems getting rid of number padding would certainly be simplifying things. It's a pain to be adjusting my character sheet every now and then (our DM advances us a bit faster than usual, which I understand to be the norm unless you expect to be playing with the same group and characters for a long time).

When I increase my skills, I don't really feel like I'm advancing. Even though I'm one point stealthier than I was a moment ago, I know that I'm not going to be doing any sleuthing; that's always going to be the rogue's job. When everyone in the party is adding the same bonus to the same numbers, then my role in the party doesn't change at all, and only the things that differentiate me from the other PCs (powers, feats) makes me feel like my character is growing more powerful.

***

I think perhaps looking at this topic from a different perspective could be helpful. In particular, how would the game change if, instead of adding one half your level, you added your full level (and monsters were adjusted accordingly)? Well, now each level would give the players a greater feeling of character advancement (to the point where adding one half your level seems very limiting in the context of character advancement! Why should you only become more powerful on even levels? As a newcomer to D&D, the odd levels don't give me nearly the same feeling of advancement as the even levels, due to the current topic of discussion, as well as being able to choose feats only on even levels). Also, the range of levels for which a DM can effectively choose enemies is now narrower, since the character's attack and defense ratings increase twice as quickly.

Now, what would happen if you added twice your level instead of one half? Well, now people have an even greater feeling of character advancement, as gaining a level makes them much more powerful (those kobolds we were just fighting now seem puny!). Now the DM had better not veer outside of a +-1 level range, since anything beyond that is either absurdly weaker or stronger than the characters.

So, you might also want to consider the question "why would the designers choose to add one half a character's level, rather than some higher value?", and accept that scaling this value in one direction or the other has effects that can subjectively be benefits or detriments depending on who you ask.

Or perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about!

 

[Szatany]

Removing magic item bonuses is not a bad idea, but to compensate for the loss of the 1/6 attack/defense bonus from magic items, monsters should suffer a penalty of 2/3 level to attack and defense instead of 1/2 level.

The loss of weapon/implement bonuses also affects damage. You may want to add that back in (+1/6 level to damage for all PCs) or trim the monster's hit points a smidge to compensate (maybe, 10% less or so?).

-- 77IM

Simplest solution - don't remove magic bonus entirely, let it still add damage (but no more attack bonus).

 

[DracoSuave]

I think perhaps looking at this topic from a different perspective could be helpful. In particular, how would the game change if, instead of adding one half your level, you added your full level (and monsters were adjusted accordingly)? Well, now each level would give the players a greater feeling of character advancement (to the point where adding one half your level seems very limiting in the context of character advancement! Why should you only become more powerful on even levels? As a newcomer to D&D, the odd levels don't give me nearly the same feeling of advancement as the even levels, due to the current topic of discussion, as well as being able to choose feats only on even levels). Also, the range of levels for which a DM can effectively choose enemies is now narrower, since the character's attack and defense ratings increase twice as quickly.

The way advancement is set up now, you get something every level. Every odd level you get or trade a power, every even level you get a feat and attack bonus ups.

The only exceptions are levels 1, 11, and 21, where you get a big heap o goodies, new feats, attribute ups, new powers, new class/path/destinies. Kinda appropriate tho, given those are the benchmarks for the tiers.

 

[tatoolo]

The way advancement is set up now, you get something every level. Every odd level you get or trade a power, every even level you get a feat and attack bonus ups.

The only exceptions are levels 1, 11, and 21, where you get a big heap o goodies, new feats, attribute ups, new powers, new class/path/destinies. Kinda appropriate tho, given those are the benchmarks for the tiers.

Well, let me put it this way. When I hit level 2, I got to choose a new feat, all my defenses and attack value went up by one, and I got a utility power. When I hit level three, I took a new encounter power and thought "...that's it?". When I will hit level four, I get a new feat, a +1 increase to two stats, and a bonus to all my defenses and attack scores.