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What if you brought 4E back to 1970?

Believe it or not I think one thing that would kill the popularity of 4e is the bastardized use of the English language. (yeah, I realize that sounds stupid but just follow me for a second.)

Heh Im not sure teachers adopting it for gifted students was that quick? or that big of part of its success... I didnt here about that till early 80's.. I might have been out of that loop. They really didnt have much gifted support .. in my area most of the time they might have pushed you up a grade
 

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Heh Im not sure teachers adopting it for gifted students was that quick? or that big of part of its success... I didnt here about that till early 80's.. I might have been out of that loop. They really didnt have much gifted support .. in my area most of the time they might have pushed you up a grade

It wasn't really pushed because just about the time people realized what was happening was when the BADD purge began. But, it really did happen about that quickly, quietly at first but, more prevalent until the mid 80s.
 

It wasn't really pushed because just about the time people realized what was happening was when the BADD purge began. But, it really did happen about that quickly, quietly at first but, more prevalent until the mid 80s.

Yeah I do recall a teacher asking me about it, he was discussing wanting to use it in the mid or late 80's.
 

So you just dont pay any attention to the fact that Tolkien Orcs as a race of likely non-reproducing beings...

Where did you get this from? It is quite clear that orcs in Tolkein reproduce.

:confused:

Evil sorcerors and witch kings make orcs as cannon fodder... the things dont reproduce.

Ah. I see. You are mistaking Peter Jacksons' films for Tolkein's works. Sorry, but there is a big difference between the two.


RC
 

IIRC, orcs from vats were an invention of the movie, not the book. And those were not orcs, but uruk-hai, the "improved" version used by Saruman, not the regular orcs/goblins used by Sauron. There's also some debate as to whether orcs were "corrupted" versions of elves, or something else -- IIRC, Tolkien was never entirely clear on the matter, but did say that Morgoth/Sauron can't create life, which implies corruption rather than creation, and PERHAPS breeding to replace their ranks thereafter . . . either that, or the supply of orcs would have been dwindling over the ages.


In the books, the orcs were created by Morgoth by corrupting elves, and the trolls were made by corrupting ents. I believe reference to the same may be found in The Silmarillion.

The improved orcs of Saruman were actually created by breeding humans and orcs. In the book, Saruman tells the hillmen west of Rohan that the Rohirrim are kidnapping their women, meanwhile using said women to interbreed with orcs in the pits under his tower, thus creating not only his new half-orcs, but making the hillmen into enemies he can (and does) use against Rohan.

The first half-orcs to appear in LotR are actually in Bree. This explains why Saruman has Leaf from the Shire.


RC
 

Can we both agree that spikey armor is silly? ;)

There was a bunch of argument over portrayal of vikings with horned helms back in the day (its unpractical)... and arguments over chainmail bikinis (insane girls wearing those things -> sun burn horrors -> but those I have met seemed to like the power in them).

Spikey armor? ... I sure wouldn't wear anything likely to catch on a weapon myself. Armor was used as weapon sans spikes... you could be more aggressive because of it.

... but the game is a fantasy with lots of flavors ... and if "a wizard did it" can explain anything well.. it ought to explain horned helms which dont make good handles for your enemies.

D&D has awfully high magic ring to it. In many games they give guidelines for controlling the flavor of play and creating a game world of varying genres... or differing degrees of cinematic or whatever.

If you take a game back to the seventies.. why not take one back designed to handle the most common literary genres... cowboy and westerns .. and romance for instance.
 
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Saruman was again implied responsible in the book for the vague little mention of someone that might have looked like a goblin-like human...

Who later help him take over the Shire and call him Shaku, "Old Man" in orcish.

It seems unlikely to me orcs would reproduce naturally...

"Orc" is from the elvish for goblin. In Tolkein, orcs and goblins are the same thing. In The Hobbit, not only does Tolkein specify the family relations of two goblins:

The Goblins are upon you! Bolg* of the North is coming, O Dain! whose father you slew in Moria.​

The foot note reads

Son of Azog. See p. 34.​

And on page 34:

'Your grandfather Thror was killed, you remember, in the Mines of Moria by Azog the Goblin.'​
 
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Wow...misconceptions abound. First, I'll deal with all the comments about orcs, half-orcs, and The Lord of the Rings and the "legitimacy" of Star Wars.

The origin of orcs is left somewhat (intentionally?) vague. Tolkien, remember, was a staunch Roman Catholic. The Valar (the lords of Middle-Earth) were NEVER referred to as "gods." They were the servants of Ilúvatar, the one above all (Yahweh, basically). In Tolkien's conception of Middle-Earth, ONLY Ilúvatar could create life. As far as the origin of Orcs, from The Silmarillion, I quote:

"Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise."

For those who don't know, the "Quendi" is one of Tolkien's terms for Elves. And the "Children of Ilúvatar" is the collective term for Elves and Men.

Now, on the subject of "half-orcs," they definitely exist in The Lord of the Rings. Pippin, specifically, uses the phrase during the chapter "The scouring of the Shire." The "Men" there (many of them at any rate) are described as "orc-like" or with features Tolkien associates frequently with Orcs. Another phrase used in the course of the story is "Goblin-Men" as distinct from orcs. Tolkien, recall, used "goblin" and "orc" as synonyms.

Moving on, Star Wars ceased to be a "film with a little cult following" when, on its first release, it shattered box office records to date. It was a huge phenomenon almost instantaneously. A few critics didn't get it and panned it on release, and they looked almost universally foolish very shortly thereafter.

On the subject of 4e, I think the more interesting thing than the game itself might be to take back one of the designers/developers (Mike Mearls, for example) who understands the math behind the system, as well as game design as a science. Introducing such a person to Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson in the early days of the hobby would be monumental. That assumes, naturally, that Gary "gets it" and isn't so arrogant that he disdains all advice. Which, not to speak ill of the dead, isn't exactly a foregone conclusion.

Anyway, just some clarification.
 

On the relationship between Goblins and Orcs, there is an even clearer passage in the Hobbit, where the narrator refers to the different names for goblins and refers in two places to, "even the big Orcs of the mountains", implying that 'orc' was simply a word for 'big goblin' and vica versa, that 'goblin' simply meant a small breed of orc.

As for the breeding of orcs, its implied and sometimes outright stated in many places that they bred quite independently of the need for any 'big bosses' like Saruman or Sauron. Treebeard the Ent states that Saruman has commited a great crime by breeding orcs with men, resulting in a breed of orc with greater size and greater tolerance for the sun than the common goblins of the mountains (that went right on breeding for a couple thousand years when Sauron was entirely incorporal and ghostly).
 

"Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise."

For those who don't know, the "Quendi" is one of Tolkien's terms for Elves. And the "Children of Ilúvatar" is the collective term for Elves and Men.

Ah yes thanks It has been years since i read the Silmarillion. I will admit that I hated the taking of the shire and i figured humans that reminded one of goblins aren't that special, I think I knew a few.

If I was doing a Tolkein game.. and a player wanted one in spite of how D&D builds them I would suggest they build them as a human and describe them as ugly, crouched and call them half orcs... and there wouldn't be any mechanic difference to them. Want to have an explotiable bad temper.. take a mc barbarian feat. Were they beat severely because they didnt toe the line... puck their boost as CON... did the get raised by humans and fight off bullies up the Strength... they shouldnt have grace and speed like elves no DEX boost.

Star Wars was deceptively profitable... I knew people within the first month who went to the show at the theatres a dozen times... it seemed umm idiotic.
 

Into the Woods

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