What I'm looking for in commercial adventures

[Morrus]

This is also a good point. I think the question is: do you want everything to be ready-to use to the point of limiting creativity by the DM and players (because, let's be frank, most DMs will simply stick to the adventure as written), or do you want to promote creativity by forcing DMs and players to improvise more of the PC storyline, without however asking more prep time by the DM?

I don't think the designer's goal is to either limit or promote creativity - or to limit or promote anything else for that matter. It's simply to provide something which people will enjoy; there's no goal beyond that (well, that's a means to a profit end, but in terms of design, that's the goal).

I'd suggest that if a designer desired to "promote creativity" in the hobby, he's better off writing a DMG-style book which teaches DMs how to write their own stuff. I imagine there'd be a market for such a book, although I'd hate to try to write it!

In the long run, our goal is to satisfy most of the people most of the time; that's a better model than one which satisfies some of the people all of the time. Whether one achieves that goal is another issue (we hope we have, but it's not for us to say) but that is the goal. And we believe - rightly or wrongly - that the AP model with predesigned encounters is what most AP customers want most of the time. I'm not saying we know this for certain; but it's worked well for us so far.

In our next AP, of course, we're developing in other ways, just like Paizo are in theirs. For example, we're taking a hard look at the "base-building" aspect of a campaign and the various ways that can work and interact with the campaign itself. We're also big fans of the moral grey-areas; we try to avoid stark black/white good/evil setups and have the players make difficult decisions at times - and to allow them to make the wrong decision without derailing the campaign. Sometimes the decision which looks right might not be the right one upon closer examination, or may have unforeseen consequences. On other ways, we look at the alliances and enemies the players choose to make along the way and how that effects the end of the campaign.

So there are a million different ways one can spin an AP. Each one will have its own slant on the idea. WotBS had its slant, and the next AP (working title "Zeitgeist", but that may well change) will have a different slant.

I do believe that a strong pre-published story requires a certain level of railroading. That's because it has to be written in advance, and cater for more than just one gaming group. The effect you're describing, I feel, is something an AP can never replicate in the way that a DM writing as he goes along can; it would be inferior to the DM's own stuff. APs should use their strengths, which are strong stories, evocative set-pieces, memorable events, and so forth.

 

[IronWolf]

With the wide open OGL of 3rd edition along with countless Dungeon adventures, surely there is a preexisting product/adventure that should match Skyscraper's desires? One that he could simply point to as an example of what he wants? Isn't there? I guess I could go through my Dungeon magazines to find something to his tastes but I'm way to lazy to do so...

A couple of us suggested Kingmaker from Paizo, which I think comes real close to fitting the bill for him. But he is playing 4e and though converting the AP to 4e would take too much work.

 

[Wicht]

Skyscraper, Coliseum Morpheuon is currently on schedule to be released by Rite Publishing and Cubicle 7 in November. It is a setting/adventure suitable for PFRP PCs of 16-18th level. Without giving too much away about it yet, I think it may have a format very close to what you are looking for.

In putting it together, I made the events and encounters modular in such a way as to enable multiple stories to be run around the same set of events. There are a half a dozen different plots suggested within, including rough timelines of which encounters would flow best with each sub-plot and when (with extra encounters that DMs can choose to use or not use as they wish when they wish). At the same time, there is a definite set of 10 major gladiatorial events which occur at specific times regardless of what the PCs do which help ensure the whole thing continues at a constant pace.

The reasoning behind this design choice was pretty simple: we were aiming to make the module suitable for PCs that had finished an adventure path, any adventure path. Of course with such a goal it is impossible to predict exactly what would motivate each group of PCs and so in writing it, I didn't try for a single concrete story-line but instead aimed to make the whole thing very flexible in how it can be used. I'm very pleased with how it turned out and a little anxious to see how it is recieved. Look for more on it in the coming months.

 

[Skyscraper]

Morrus: catering to the majority is certainly a strong approach commercially; it's just often not the approach that yields products that I like. I gave the example of Hollywood bluckbuster movies before; it's now very rare that one comes out that I like. But the movie companies make the big bucks out of them, we'd have to blame human nature before blaming them I think. I just think it's too bad that they can't figure out a way to both make money and be original, with the resources they have at their disposal for each of those blockbusters. For example, The Matrix was an unusual movie, one that took a lot of convincing to get done, but in the end it really paid off and it was original.

Yet, I feel like I must share what I think and what I'm looking for and not remain silent. Share my preferences, even if they end up being that of a minority. And remain opened to listen and contemplate what others propose. It's cool that many people have provided their input in this thread, which adds to my relfexion on the subject. I'm also glad to have learned of a few commercial products that are close to what I'm looking for. Kingmaker et al.; duly noted, and I'll keep my eyes opened for future products knowing what I do now about those. It's also great to see that there is evolution in D&D design, you have shared some of your ideas for how to evolve the EnWorld APs, Paizo has its ideas on how to evolve Paizo APs and, presumably, the same is true for WotC and other publishers. It's fun to see that no one wants to sit on his laurels and people still want to push the line further. It's too bad for me that it's not all the lines that I wish were being pushed; on the other hand, many ideas are introduced that I would not have thought about.

I'll be looking forward to seeing what comes out in the future!

Sky

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

It looks like a fun storyline from my perspective. Did you run it as DM and, if so, did you find that the preparation time was increased significantly?

I did run it, as a capstone to a 2 year CP2020 campaign.. which meant my players knoew the characters, world, and mechanics very well. I was also to the point of running most games with only an occasional reference to the books.
This meant that, at the time I ran it, there was no additional prep time as I was already 'winging-it' for the group heavily before that. The module let me be structured and prepared instead of completely ad-hoc.

If I were to try to run it now? egads. I haven't run a CP game in over 7 years. It would take quite a bit to get back up to speed on encounter balance and would proabably end up in a very rapid TPK... as alot of ill-prepared CP games do.

 

[Skyscraper]

Coliseum Morpheuon is currently on schedule to be released

Nice. I look forward to reading about it, at least.

Sky

 

[Morrus]

Yet, I feel like I must share what I think and what I'm looking for and not remain silent.

Of course. And you've started an interesting debate. This is a great thread!

 

[Lanefan]

It's also great to see that there is evolution in D&D design, you have shared some of your ideas for how to evolve the EnWorld APs, Paizo has its ideas on how to evolve Paizo APs and, presumably, the same is true for WotC and other publishers.

What about adventures that are not designed to be part of a path? Do you think they're going out of style?

For my part, just give me the stand-alone adventures and let me figure out the path, if any, that connects them within my setting. For while I certainly run adventure paths at times within my campaigns, at least half of the adventures themselves are usually my own homebrew; and for the rest I'll use whatever module that leaps to hand and seems to fit.

Lan-"assuming, incorrectly of course, the party will stay on the path"-efan

 

[Skyscraper]

Yeah, I'll add stuff to commercial adventures or APs I use, too, and steal stuff from just about everything I can put my hands on and is at least mildly interesting. Maps, NPCs, story ideas, monsters, storyline segments, name 'em.

I would prefer to have everything I want into a single product, of course, since with age time is pretty much of the essence, at the risk of falling into stereotypical declarations. But that is everyone's case I'm sure. This being said, story-driven APs remain the best base source for me to work from, I'm now running The Shackled City and WotBS and I like both for their setting and storyline, even though they are too much railroady for my taste. I've changed Shackled City significantly, cutting out significant portions of the early AP dungeon crawls for example, and adding some story elements to it. As for WotBS, it's still early for me to say if and how I'll modify it, we'll see as we move forward - for the time being, I'm off on vacation tomorrow and I've been overloaded with work so session 2 will have to wait.

Sky

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, I'll add stuff to commercial adventures or APs I use, too, and steal stuff from just about everything I can put my hands on and is at least mildly interesting. Maps, NPCs, story ideas, monsters, storyline segments, name 'em.

Ayup. Guilty as charged!

I would prefer to have everything I want into a single product, of course, since with age time is pretty much of the essence, at the risk of falling into stereotypical declarations. But that is everyone's case I'm sure. This being said, story-driven APs remain the best base source for me to work from, ...

Which is great, provided that path tells the story you want to tell. But if it doesn't, or if you (like me) already have lots of story ideas and just need adventures to fit into 'em, then what?

Lanefan