What impact would flying mounts have on a non-magical medieval-style world?

BiggusGeekus said:
First, just to nitpick, giant eagles and pegasi could no way, no how exist in a truly non-magical world. Not that you should care, I'm just bringing it up before one of your players does.

What BiggusGeekus said. Flying creatures large enough to carry humans are magic.

If you assume a no-magic flying technology such as hot air balloons, they will be most useful for observation posts. In some rare situations they might come in handy to place a small squad of troops at a place where they are not expected.

You should bear in mind that this requires unusually advanced technology and physics in the first place, and will be expensive to maintain.
 

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When I made my reference to "magic," I was referring to the supernatural powers employed by arcane and divine spellcasters, as well as the presence of magic items. There's still plenty of room for creatures such as pegasi, griffons and giant eagles without throwing all that other stuff into the mix.

Like I said, the kingdom in the sky and the flying mounts are the only fantastical elements in this world so far.
 

It comes down to politics. People have a way of overcoming or working around a problem when they are faced with it, rather than thinking about it. It is possible people would go underground or start moving at night, then there are decoys. Don't get me wrong, flying mounts would rule the world but after a few kingdoms join up you start having other agendas, it is a medieval world, such as policing and quick response, trade.
 

rbingham2000 said:
Again, I am liking this stuff.

Some great anti-flier tactics have been mentioned above, such as using forested areas for cover, net-throwing catapults, ballista batteries, fire, and going underground.

Logistics is something that will definitely come into play on both sides -- the nets, the ballistas and so forth have to come from somewhere, bringing the whole "eye in the sky" thing into play again.

And I've been thinking of using a very high mountain or several for the sky kingdom instead of having the place really high up in the clouds -- much more believable and less of a reliance on magic. This also opens the sky kingdom up to a counterattack, but unless the land-bound kingdoms have really strong climbers and aerial cavalry of their own, trying to attack the kingdom itself will be rather tough at best.

Most likely, if the folks on the ground are in castles, the castle likely has some ballistae and catapults in place. With potential assault from the air, they would likely just mount what they have on to something that allows the ballista to swivel and also change the firing angle easily. They probably already have some limited ability to do that, but just need more of it.

If the folks on the ground have wise leadership, they might also have these things prepared, "well, those folks in the sky sure seem nice... but, everything changes. While it may be bright & sunny today, it could turn stormy tomorrow." They might even prepare them in secret.

Having the sky kingdom on top of a high mountain sounds good as well. Is the sky kingdom able to support itself in regards to food & water? Maybe they have some way of getting water from the clouds, or at least from the snow on top of the mountains.
 

rbingham2000 said:
I have an idea born of a picture in my head of a division of shining-armored cavalry on gleaming white pegasi launching a furious charge against an enemy below.
My first thought is, why would they wear shining armor and lead a charge? Archers on flying mounts could simply circle and rain down arrows with impunity. They'd do the Mongols one better.
rbingham2000 said:
Basically, these pegasus-riders are from a kingdom in the sky that up until recently has been on pleasant terms with the land-bound kingdoms. But now, the old king has passed on and a new king has taken the throne, an ambitious king who has his heart set on conquest.
How does the kingdom in the sky support itself? Does it have farmland in the sky? Does it demand grain as tribute from earthbound subjects? How does it transport goods from earth to sky in large amounts?
rbingham2000 said:
So...what impact would these flying mounts have on a non-magical medieval-style world? What kind of technology would arise as a result of their existence (in particular, how would trade be conducted?)? How would transportation in the land-bound world be affected? And what kinds of battles would take place when these flying mounts are used for war?
Flying mounts would speed communication tremendously and would be used largely for intelligence in war. Presumably they're more expensive than infantry, and they have little firepower, but they're immune to counter-attack. They could harass terrestrial armies, but they couldn't easily break an enemy position or hold territory.
 

"I think you overestimate their chances" - Grand Moff Tarkin

I think that far too much advantage is being ceded to the flyers in this thread. Don't get me wrong - it is a very powerful advantage, but it is not - on its own - enough to be decisive in the face of a persistent and adaptive enemy.

As part of a combined arms approach, the intelligence available from the air may prove (or may not prove - intelligence is frequently not decisive) to be highly useful, but as a weapons platform, this is not a decisive advantage on a classical/medieval technology level battlefield to the extent that it can win on its own.

In fact, I will go a little farther: without a combined arms approach, a "flyer" based army will not prevail over a determined ground based foe. The ground based enemy will adapt and win over the course of your world history.

Why?

My belief: Air power is just not powerful enough on its own to win a war, occupy ground and control resources.

If you consider the relative importance of Air Power in WW1, an era in which it was possible to fly MUCH faster than any of these flying creatures can fly, and carry more weight than any of these flying creatures can carry, even then...air power was not decisive in the era. It was very helpful at reconnaissance, but as a weapon, it lacked a number of important features:

1 - it could not occupy and physically control land; (Fantasy: This remains true)

2 - you could dig a hole and put a roof over your head to protect yourself from it, essentially denying it any effectiveness as a weapons platform; (Fantasy - *decisively* true)

3 - it was STILL not all that fast. Now, mind you, this is in comparison to bullets - which were much faster - but even still, a WW1 era plane was really not all that fast in the sense that it could not attack with great surprise and it could be meaningfully tracked by ground weapons capable of bringing it down.

(Fantasy - LESS true, but this is still problematic against a determined enemy who has adapted and evolved anti-air defences of military effectiveness.)

4 - it was a relatively fragile craft not able to withstand much damage before it would fall to the earth. Put another way, to wound an air unit is FAR more likely to result in its death than wounding a ground unit is.

(Fantasy: remains reasonably true)

5 - it was not capable of carrying significant enough weight which could meaningfully accomplish great destruction on the ground (again, this is especially true when compared to contemporary ground based weapons in the era of WW1)

(Fantasy: still equally true)

6 - It was not capable of moving enough men and materiel to be preferred over ground based and sea based transport (Fantasy: This remains true)

7 - An air unit is, economically speaking, far more expensive than infantry or artillery, where it's more or less a case of anyone's son will do.

(Fantasy: MORE true)

In our world, the earliest prophet of Air Power, Giulio Douhet, predicted in the 20's that air power would become all important and the dominant force on the battlefield. He would prove to be right - but most of his contemporaries laughed at him at the time. And - here is the important point – in the mid-20’s they were RIGHT to laugh at him.

It was not until the late 1930's that aircraft engines developed significantly and became powerful enough to carry a heavy enough weight, with a significant enough range, that was fast enough that they could not be easily be brought down from the ground and were themselves powerful enough to be a significant weapons platform.

Even still, it was not until the first Gulf War that air based weapons were accurate enough to be decisive on their own as the pre-eminent stand alone weapons platform of the war.

Ok - that's the real world history lesson. How does this translate to the fantasy world?

1 - Air based forces have superior battlefield intelligence.

They know where the enemy is, barring elaborate subterranean efforts to conceal those facts.

Important advantage, but not decisive on its own. An entrenched defender WILL using elaborate roofing and stone to eliminate your advantage.

2 - Air based forces as air cavalry have superior mobility

Important advantage, but my guess is that they will not be able to do anything of great importance with this advantage standing on its own.

3 - An air based army is going to be hard to conceal when moving and consume VAST amounts of food to move.

This is the tricky part. Anyone can get a few thousand people out on to a field. The trouble starts at dinner time.

An air based army cannot carry enough food to feed its mounts. It’s simple logistics. Flying takes more fuel than walking. That’s true whether your fuel is gasoline or oats. Strategically, your army will have a very limited effective range. What this really means is that it simply is not a stand alone army. And like any army - it crawls on its stomach.

4- As a run and gun guerrilla weapon, it cannot be beat and can't be effectively defended against.

Hey. It's not all bad for air power is it? An air based army should be able to cripple the economy of a dispersed agrarian based foe. At least as deep behind enemy lines as you can reach given your units' effective range. Split up in smaller forces, you can disperse and live off the land. You should be able to burn out and starve your enemy.

This night be the only real killer app to flying pegasi.

Unless he stores his food and is in a big hurry not to sit back and be starved out but seeks to march on your home town for a game of drop the rock.

5 - As a weapon platform, the knight on pegasi or archer on hippogriff is less militarily effective than the archers and pikemen he will be attacking.

This is not heroic combat - this is a battlefield.

The enemy will adapt. They will develop portable anti-air weapons - be it arrows or torsion based launchers which are fast enough and powerful enough and - above all - numerous enough to make the flyer pay a price for coming too close to the enemy. And they will develop shields and pikes formation long enough and thick enough to fend the flyers physical attacks off.

Moreover, when you are talking about arrows, you are talking about a military weapon that is highly inaccurate. A longbowman cannot hit the proverbial cow in the ass with a shovel. What he can do is put a shaft 250-350 yards over yonder. And if you group him with a few thousand like minded buddies, train em for a long time, bunch em up and develop a fire control system so all these ranks in depth can time their arrow launches so the whole barrage hits the target area at once, THEN, YES - you can do a lot of damage and rule the battlefield. (NOTE: We STILL do not know how they actually co-ordinated this kind of arrow attack at Agincourt).

And just HOW, pray, do you do this with a whole lot of flying air cav and wings beating so loud the people up there can't even hear a command? You can't bunch em up to be dense enough to achieve that sort of massed arrow attack like the English longbowmen could to hit the enemy ground army effectively – your wingspan of your mounts is too large. If you try to manage it via layering, you’ll be just as likely to kill your buddy beneath you and you present a target large enough that is simply cannot be missed if it can be reached by a ground based weapon. That means you pull back until you are using gravity assist to hit em. And *that* means you can't hit very much you are aiming at. In order to hit anything with any effectiveness, you will have to be VERY bunched up and dense - far more than I think is practically possible...

But let's say I’m wrong and you can.

Even if you could, it will probably take you enough time to arrange your forces for this sort of arrow launch that the enemy is going to see it coming from well off. If you attack from far enough above that nothing they can fire has enough velocity and momentum to reach you, then you have gravity on your side. The foe is not stupid. They are going to disperse, raise the big ass shields over their heads, dig in and **wait you out**.

Now, all of this changes if your forces are suddenly mounted on dragons. That's like an upgrade to a P-51. But if all we are talking about is Knights on Pegasi?

They'll be pretty. A breathtaking sight. The pride of the nation. But on their own, they are not decisive enough to prevail in the long term.
 

Steel_Wind said:
If you consider the relative importance of Air Power in WW1, an era in which it was possible to fly MUCH faster than any of these flying creatures can fly, and carry more weight than any of these flying creatures can carry, even then...air power was not decisive in the era.
Right, but that primitive air power was competing against industrialized armies able to mobilize massive numbers of conscriptied troops, arm them with powerful rifles and machine guns, and transport them via railway. And that's before we discuss artillery.

Against a medieval army, the Lafayette Escadrille looks a whole lot more potent.
Steel_Wind said:
2 - you could dig a hole and put a roof over your head to protect yourself from it, essentially denying it any effectiveness as a weapons platform; (Fantasy - *decisively* true)
Yes, but forcing a medieval army to dig in is almost as good as eliminating it. It can't remain in the field for more than a month or two, even if well supplied. If you can tie it down and then harass its supply lines with impunity, you don't need to crush it in a clash of arms.
Steel_Wind said:
3 - it was STILL not all that fast. Now, mind you, this is in comparison to bullets - which were much faster - but even still, a WW1 era plane was really not all that fast in the sense that it could not attack with great surprise and it could be meaningfully tracked by ground weapons capable of bringing it down.
What medieval ground weapons could threaten high-flying archers? Obviously archers can shoot down from a much greater height than their foes can shoot up.

I think we should look at these airborne troops as super-Mongols, able to arrive before scouts can report that they're coming, and able to rain down arrows without fear from infantry.
 

mmadsen said:
What medieval ground weapons could threaten high-flying archers? Obviously archers can shoot down from a much greater height than their foes can shoot up.

I think we should look at these airborne troops as super-Mongols, able to arrive before scouts can report that they're coming, and able to rain down arrows without fear from infantry.

If you are flying that high, you aren't hitting crap if they disperse.

As I discussed above quite extensively, you need to be able to concentrate arrow fire for it to be miltarily effective. The size of your mounts and the practical problems of co-ordination of fire prevents you from massing your troops dense enough with enough coordination to blanket barrage an area like the long bow can. Assuming you even could do it - they'll disperse and get the shields up when they see it coming. If you don't have a ground force to exploit the dispsersal, it's not going to matter all that much.

The mongol archers wouldn't have been decisive either against a competent foe. They were impressive given the level of organization they fought against, but over the course of time? Not decisive in the least. Put the Mongol archers against Henry at Agincourt and you've got a whole lot of horses-as-fertilizer pretty quick. On a battlefield, nothing beats density of fire.

The more like a skirmish your battle resembles, the more favored the mongol raider is.

I DO think the air cav as supreme geurilla raiders is the killer app though. There is no real effective defence against that in the long term. The only defence is a good and fast offence to that sort of strategy - or more of the same right back at 'em (rival air forces).
 

Steel_Wind said:
"I think you overestimate their chances" - Grand Moff Tarkin

Even still, it was not until the first Gulf War that air based weapons were accurate enough to be decisive on their own as the pre-eminent stand alone weapons platform of the war.

Not quite true. There was a succesful pure air defense of an air base against a combined arms ground assault over the course of weeks during vietnam. OTOH it required round the clock carpet bombing by B-52s. The day you develop the fantasy equivalent of an arclight drop is the day you rule the world.

Reguarding the effectiveness of airborne archery. Yup it's pretty useless unless you want to become a flying pinchushion. However there is plenty that a flying troop can do from well above the absolute (Not effective, I mean beyond golden BB range) range of the ground forces. And that is to drop things.

There are basically three things you can drop.

1) Firepots. Worthless against troops, devastating against any city not made purely from stone, think the Doolittle raid, or the fire of Rome. The Air forces can break any besieged city much much faster than would be possible without them by dropping firepots, or rotten carcasses to spread disease.

2) Flechettes. Short heavy arrows dropped by the handfull. The french tried this early in WW1 and found them ineffective. However it wasn't long pursued as better weapons (IE machine guns and bombs) were developed. With enhanced tactics they might prove reasonably effective against massed troops. By enhanced tactics I mean formation drops by whole units of ariel troops. If the Pegasi can be trained to fly in tethered formation then each rider might have another pegasi tehered behind him with nothing but a full load of flechettes and a dump mechanism. These are not precision weapons, but as with the longbow (which is an acurate weapon, the problem in a mass battle is target aquisition) massed fire is effective when you have nowhere to dodge. Since this is only effective on troops in formation it can only be used when your ground allies have brought them to battle and they must form up or be destroyed.

3) Green slime. Halfway between a nuclear bomb and gas this (if your low magic world has it) is the most utterly devastating weapon available to a fantasy airforce. One night bombardment by ariel troops on the camps of the enemy will result in a giant pool of slime that goes away as soon as the sun comes up. This is the one tactic that is more effective against troops in a forest than on a plain. (Firepots would be effective only if the forest was in a drought.)

Aside from scouting, communication and dropping things the last effective use of ariel mounts is to deliver guerilla forces behind enemy lines, or to conduct supply line raids. This depends on the effective radius of your mounts. The predatory mounts like giant eagles and owls have the advantage here as they have a reasonable chance of living off the land or enemy livestock/draft animals. Otherwise without magic like bag of holding the pegasi only have a days flight radius to work in, although supply caches can extend this of course.

-Andor
 

As an aside, another way to foul up fliers is with a "swallow's trap" (I'm probably misremembering the name.) It consists of a system that sends up a number of lines when a flier passes overhead. The wing are tangled up in the lines and the creature falls. Depending on the tech level of your scenario, the keep could have primitive rockets that trail lines behind them, or a squad of archers whose arrows have strong silk threads tied to boulders.

Baron Opal
 

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