D&D 5E What is +1 Strength worth?

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
So let me get this straight. D&D 5E is the most successful version of any TTRPG ever, but "people" don't like it? Who are these people going "this is terrible, you really need to try it and join my Thursday game!"
What part of people might like less than 100% of an edition do fans not understand?

I am a sports fan. I like my favorite teams but BOY CAN I RANT on players and staff on my teams I am not fans of.

D&D fans love 5e. However a significantly large percentage of fans wish it weren't. designed for stereotypes.
 

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Lyxen

Great Old One

Oofta

Legend
What part of people might like less than 100% of an edition do fans not understand?

I am a sports fan. I like my favorite teams but BOY CAN I RANT on players and staff on my teams I am not fans of.

D&D fans love 5e. However a significantly large percentage of fans wish it weren't. designed for stereotypes.
Okay. No game is perfect. There are some rules I don't care for. Hate? Hate leads to the dark side...wait...that's not quite right.

I dislike some aspects of D&D. Hate those aspects? Not really. I accept that the game isn't perfect because nothing is. Big difference.
 

the only problem I have is 'when all else is equal'

does a fighter is +1 str do better or worse then one with +1 con?
does a fighter is +1 str do better or worse then one with +1 dex?
does a fighter is +1 str do better or worse then one with +1 wis?
(I will leave Int and Cha out of the equation.)
 

Why were the two original fighters built with their only difference being strength?
Since there's no way actual characters would be built with just a single attribute point being different this white room exercise doesn't apply to reality. It did inspire conversation though, so I guess that's alright

It's pure white room, of course. But the point is to isolate one variable in order to evaluate it. If the fighters have 5 differences, rather than 1, then you don't know which of those 5 differences led to the outcome.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
the only problem I have is 'when all else is equal'

does a fighter is +1 str do better or worse then one with +1 con?
does a fighter is +1 str do better or worse then one with +1 dex?
does a fighter is +1 str do better or worse then one with +1 wis?
(I will leave Int and Cha out of the equation.)

You should not. A character is not his stats, and NO-ONE (except some types of "challenge" DMs and powergamers that I would not care to play with personally) should criticise your character for being what he is, a character who is not perfect, not one-dimensional, not fully optimised. Just play what you want to play.
 

It's pure white room, of course. But the point is to isolate one variable in order to evaluate it. If the fighters have 5 differences, rather than 1, then you don't know which of those 5 differences led to the outcome.
But it's impossible for two characters to have one one attribute point of difference.
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin is more relevant to gameplay
 

the only problem I have is 'when all else is equal'

does a fighter is +1 str do better or worse then one with +1 con?
does a fighter is +1 str do better or worse then one with +1 dex?
does a fighter is +1 str do better or worse then one with +1 wis?
(I will leave Int and Cha out of the equation.)

That's much harder to model, unless you have an estimate for how often the need for those other stats comes up. It's true that the worse you are at something, the more benefit you get from the +1. So if you think you're going to face a lot of fear checks, or even if it's just really important to your character concept that you succeed at those fear checks, then it makes sense to invest in Wis.

The point of my sim wasn't to argue that Str is better than the other attributes. I just wanted to add some data to the argument about the impact of getting a 16 in your primary stat.
 

But it's impossible for two characters to have one one attribute point of difference.
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin is more relevant to gameplay

Well, it's not impossible if you roll.

But bear in mind I have left most of the character...the bits that won't affect the sim...out of the model.

So let's say I'm rolling up a character, and I have two variants in front of me (or in my mind). They are perfectly identical in every way, except that one has an extra point of Str, and the other has an extra point of Cha. Since I'm picturing my fighter being the sort to solve problems with a sword, but maybe sometimes he'll try to Intimidate, and so I kinda want that 12 Cha, I have the question, "How much does difference does that little measly +1 actually make?"

The answer happens to be "a lot", but there are simpler ways of solving it:*

- "Well, however much difference it is, I'm probably going to make a LOT more attack rolls than intimidation rolls, so Str is more useful."
- "I don't really care. I just want 12 Cha."

Both are totally valid.




*Those other, simpler approaches don't give me an excuse to write code, however.
 

That's much harder to model, unless you have an estimate for how often the need for those other stats comes up. It's true that the worse you are at something, the more benefit you get from the +1. So if you think you're going to face a lot of fear checks, or even if it's just really important to your character concept that you succeed at those fear checks, then it makes sense to invest in Wis.

The point of my sim wasn't to argue that Str is better than the other attributes. I just wanted to add some data to the argument about the impact of getting a 16 in your primary stat.
So you have proven that a better stat is better than a worse stat? I’m not sure that this is terribly unexpected… 🤔
 

So you have proven that a better stat is better than a worse stat? I’m not sure that this is terribly unexpected… 🤔

I mean, it should be obvious that the point of exercise was to answer how much better, in an easily understood way, and in a way that can be compared to other differences (e.g. bless, or Action Surge.)

But I get the sense you know that, and you have your own reasons for pissing on this thread. That's ok.
 

- "Well, however much difference it is, I'm probably going to make a LOT more attack rolls than intimidation rolls, so Str is more useful."
- "I don't really care. I just want 12 Cha."

Both are totally valid.
I’d like to point out that the number of rolls you make is not a good way to compare value of stats. One successful charisma roll might prevent an entire combat.
 

I mean, it should be obvious that the point of exercise was to answer how much better, in an easily understood way, and in a way that can be compared to other differences (e.g. bless, or Action Surge.)

But I get the sense you know that, and you have your own reasons for pissing on this thread. That's ok.
I don’t think your test can be reasonably said to answer the question as it doesn’t measure what the PCs actually do in the game. Difference in rounds taken to defeat an average level appropriate foe would be more useful.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So let me get this straight. D&D 5E is the most successful version of any TTRPG ever, but "people" don't like it? Who are these people going "this is terrible, you really need to try it and join my Thursday game!"
Well, he did admit to writing these posts after two shots of tequila and while being half asleep. :p
 

I don’t think your test can be reasonably said to answer the question as it doesn’t measure what the PCs actually do in the game. Difference in rounds taken to defeat an average level appropriate foe would be more useful.

That has been performed many times, and doesn't even require a computer (which makes it less fun for me), but some readers dismiss that as irrelevant, for reasons such as "You won't be fighting it alone." So I was trying something new.

But, here, let's try it:

Bandit Captain. AC 15. 65 HP.

Starsky: 55% chance to hit, average damage 6.5, DPR 3.575. Rounds to kill: 18.2
Hutch: 60% chance to hit, average damage 7.5, DPR 4.5. Rounds to kill: 14.5
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
the only problem I have is 'when all else is equal'

does a fighter is +1 str do better or worse then one with +1 con?
does a fighter is +1 str do better or worse then one with +1 dex?
does a fighter is +1 str do better or worse then one with +1 wis?
(I will leave Int and Cha out of the equation.)
You're leaving the two best stats out of the equation!!!

Wisdom is better than strength. Insight, perception and survival can shift the course of campaigns and often have large impacts on the game. Killing one creature a little bit faster every 2.5 to 5 fights.....................not so much. Strength vs con or dex is just circumstantial. If you're getting beat to hell or making lots of con saves, con will be better. If need to be quick or balance, dex will be better.
 


One successful charisma roll might prevent an entire combat.

Yeah, that's true, it might. Then again, killing that boss on round 3, instead of leaving him with 4 HP, "might" save you from a TPK. Making that fear save might do the same thing. Proficiency in water vehicles might let you reach the village in time to save it from destruction. The nice thing about D&D is that you can make up these "what ifs" all day long in order to justify your preferences, all of which are correct.

I don't find that particular game to be very useful or insightful, but YMMV. If it's the form of analysis you prefer, you could start a thread on that.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Was 2nd wind and/or subclass features factored in?

Was an alternate racial bonus given and it’s impact measured?

I expect +1 initiative or +1 con could easily swing the results to the other fighters favor.

Multiple encounters per day could as well - where the randomness of hitdice recovery can easily overcome the difference in attacks.

One thing I don’t buy is that the action surge fighter is generally worse. That finding was a result of pushing AC high instead of taking the dueling fighting style IMO. In general an extra action is like having an extra round of combat. The impact there is going to be much greater than +1 str unless the battle goes on for a large number of rounds.

In this case it would as high ac and low damage setups push this fight to last well over 10 rounds.

Take this encounter to level 5 or 6 and I think you’ll find action surge makes a huge difference.
 
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