What is a "Narrative Mechanic"?

[TaranTheWanderer]

One could argue that's an abstraction rather than a narrative mechanic, since it's still based on actions the PCs are taking.

What is an abstraction but something that deals with an idea. What is a narrative? A spoken or written account of connected events. Surely, the two definitions are connected since, in D&D we are talking about ideas but it's all how we connect ideas to create a story.

The story is different if you use Stealth to find the missing person vs Survival. And it's the player who decides what skills they want their character to use. They, therefore, are controlling the narrative. In that particular example, the player would choose the appropriate skills, tell the DM how they want to use them and the DM would narrate success or failure - but that narration is strongly influenced by the players choice.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I am not sure that the above tracks with this:

Navigating the forest is not outside what the actual characters do.

It doesn't have to be. I'm saying that a narrative mechanic is a 'mechanic' that allows a player (which could be the DM) influence the narrative.

As my previous post describes, the player chooses HOW their character navigates the forest which influences the narrative.

Another example with the AID action (or help action - I forget what it's called)

If I want to use that action to give my ally advantage, I could narrate it as:
"Attacking my opponent with my sword"
"Swinging my Sword to distract them"
"Throwing sand in my opponent's eyes"
"Cutting the rope on the chandelier so that it falls on or near my opponent"

All of these achieve the same goal: granting advantage. All of them have very different influences on the story.

 

[Reynard]

What is an abstraction but something that deals with an idea. What is a narrative? A spoken or written account of connected events. Surely, the two definitions are connected since, in D&D we are talking about ideas but it's all how we connect ideas to create a story.

The story is different if you use Stealth to find the missing person vs Survival. And it's the player who decides what skills they want their character to use. They, therefore, are controlling the narrative. In that particular example, the player would choose the appropriate skills, tell the DM how they want to use them and the DM would narrate success or failure - but that narration is strongly influenced by the players choice.

Then everything is a narrative mechanic and the distinction is unimportant?

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Then everything is a narrative mechanic and the distinction is unimportant?

I don't think that's what I'm getting at. The rules say you can swing a sword, but that doesn't really affect the established fiction. An attack action only lets you do damage or miss. There's no narrative control besides the decision to use that action. An aid(help) action gives you much more narrative control (as I described above).

But, that said, all I'm illustrating is the closest things to 'Narrative Mechanics' I can think of in D&D. I think Inspiration, used similarly to FATE would be a better example of a Narrative Mechanic, at least for D&D. I think other games have better Systems for giving narrative control.

 

[Umbran]

From this I'm learning that Fate seems to have fewer narrative mechanics than GURPS...

Is the number of mechanics a meaningful measure?

From here, I digress to something else, not because Neonchameleon was talking about it, but because I end up with a similar question....

It seems the conversation moved on to saying that mechanics that are not diegetic are necessarily narrative, and I'm not sure I'm on board with that. That seems to be placing the emphasis on the form of the mechanic, instead of its function.

Inspiration (and, by extension, Advantage/Disadvantage) are an example here. Setting aside the form, the function of this is to increase the likelihood of success of task resolution with respect to something that is already present in the narrative.

True Strike is, in mechanical effect, a limited Inspiration that takes an action to set up. Guidance adds a bonus differently, but is still trying to increase the chances that the d20 roll will succeed.

True Strike, Guidance, and Inspiration all have comparable function. But one is Narrative, and the others not? Is that a useful way to draw that line?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Is the number of mechanics a meaningful measure?

From here, I digress to something else, not because Neonchameleon was talking about it, but because I end up with a similar question....

It seems the conversation moved on to saying that mechanics that are not diegetic are necessarily narrative, and I'm not sure I'm on board with that. That seems to be placing the emphasis on the form of the mechanic, instead of its function.

Inspiration (and, by extension, Advantage/Disadvantage) are an example here. Setting aside the form, the function of this is to increase the likelihood of success of task resolution with respect to something that is already present in the narrative.

True Strike is, in mechanical effect, a limited Inspiration that takes an action to set up. Guidance adds a bonus differently, but is still trying to increase the chances that the d20 roll will succeed.

True Strike, Guidance, and Inspiration all have comparable function. But one is Narrative, and the others not? Is that a useful way to draw that line?

True Strike and Guidance are magical effects that exist in universe. The purpose of the mechanic does not determine its narrative-ness. Whether or not it represents something the PC is actually doing is.

 

[Umbran]

True Strike and Guidance are magical effects that exist in universe. The purpose of the mechanic does not determine its narrative-ness. Whether or not it represents something the PC is actually doing is.

So, there's another word for that, that I already used - "diegetic". Mechanics that operate through means that are in the imaginary world are "diegetic", and if the means are not in-story, they are "adiegetic" or "non-diegetic".

The problem I have with your distinction is that when someone talks about liking a "narrative game", the thing they like is typically not that many of the mechanics are adiegetic. That may be true, but is not relevant to their like - what they typically like is more that the game overall has more direct focus on generating satisfying narratives and/or has useful ways of passing around narrative control.

One can make a game that is focused on tactical combat, has a ton of adiegetic mechanics, and nobody would laud it as a "narrative game".

So, I submit that your approach to the distinction of narrative/not-narrative is at odds with other typical uses of the word "narrative" in the RPG space. Not that you can't use any collection of letters any way you darned well please, but in terms of making matters clear to other people who play games, it seems a poor choice.

 

[Reynard]

I don't think that's what I'm getting at. The rules say you can swing a sword, but that doesn't really affect the established fiction. An attack action only lets you do damage or miss. There's no narrative control besides the decision to use that action. An aid(help) action gives you much more narrative control (as I described above).

Thanks for clarifying. I'm not sure I'm on board, but I think I understand your position.

But, that said, all I'm illustrating is the closest things to 'Narrative Mechanics' I can think of in D&D. I think Inspiration, used similarly to FATE would be a better example of a Narrative Mechanic, at least for D&D. I think other games have better Systems for giving narrative control.

Inspiration isn't much like Fate Points in play, though. First, Fate Points are a core mechanic. The game doesn't really function without then. Inspiration is a minor, tacked on mechanic that can be easily excised or forgotten with little impact on play. Inspiration is not bound by the circumstances you use it, while Fate Points must be used to activate Aspects in specific (that is, appropriate) situations.

 

[innerdude]

Unless time travel is involved.

Which would be cool.

Which does beg the question . . . .

Which is the cooler time travel device + mentor?

DeLorean + Christopher Lloyd / Doc Brown, or Phone Booth + George Carlin / Rufus?

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Thanks for clarifying. I'm not sure I'm on board, but I think I understand your position.

Inspiration isn't much like Fate Points in play, though. First, Fate Points are a core mechanic. The game doesn't really function without then. Inspiration is a minor, tacked on mechanic that can be easily excised or forgotten with little impact on play. Inspiration is not bound by the circumstances you use it, while Fate Points must be used to activate Aspects in specific (that is, appropriate) situations.

I agree that inspiration is a tacked on mechanic and it’s my personal belief the designers took inspiration (pun intended) from FATE but failed to incorporate it into the game properly. I think I mentioned that in my first post on this thread.

Also, FATE works fine without FATE points because there’s a mechanic for establishing ASPECTS without using FATE points and, instead using skill rolls that have a set difficulty. It also has a mechanic that, if you establish an Aspect, you can invoke it for free without the need of a FATE Point (FP). FPs have other functions in the game that coincide with other systems, obviously. But the whole system doesn’t rely on FP specifically. Although, it would be a less rich game without them.

Lastly, my impression from your OP was you were looking for people impressions and ideas on what they believed a Narrative Mechanic is. So, while I’m trying to make you understand my perspective, I’m certainly not trying to convince you of anything.

To summarize (because I think you helped me distill my thoughts):

A mechanic is a system built i to the game. A narrative mechanic is any system that allows a player (GM or Player) temporary narrative control.