D&D 5E What is a Social challenge, anyways?

Burning Wheel Duel of Wits


Interesting bit:
Yeah, TB2 uses a conflict system for ALL conflicts which is, AFAIK pretty much based on how they work in BW, though I am not familiar enough with the BW ones to say exactly which flavor or what the divergence is, but I think its basically pretty similar to Duel of Wits. Anyway, this is also the TB2 combat system! In all of them you have a basic conflict type, and the range of possible outcomes will depend on the relative might of the two sides (might 2 PCs, the baseline, taking on a dragon in a negotiation are going to basically hope to survive, the best they can 'win' is probably NOT being eaten, vs some might 1 kobolds they could force the kobolds to agree to become their slaves or something). Actual conflict goes in turns, and in each turn there are 3 'rounds' in which a PC enacts some strategy. It could be an 'attack', a 'defense', a 'feint', or a 'maneuver'. The opposition does the same, and depending on the type of conflict and action type taken, there may be a check required, or something else might happen. At some point one side or the other runs out of 'disposition' (sort of hit points) and the conflict ends. At that point the winning sides disposition and the relative power of each side will determine who exactly gets how much of what they wanted, and at what price.

This is a pretty flexible system, although it may be a little 'heavy' for simpler interactions. TB2 is also perfectly happy with ad-hoc resolution of most situations that don't involve a significant conflict (like to find out if you can get food for a bargain price in the market). However, a LOT of the later type things are specific to 'town' or 'camp' phases and thus have another significant structure around them anyway. Like if you haggle in the market you risk being blackballed by all the traders there, which could be a serious problem if you need supplies badly.
 

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Staffan

Legend
I find it interesting people want a social system that is not just pass/fail when everything in the game is pass/fail really.
This goes back to Rob Donoghue's analysis of D&D's strength being combat, because combat combines the swinginess of the d20 (which makes the rolls exciting) with rolls that individually are low stakes ("Do I deal some hit points damage or not?") even if they add up to something important in aggregate. But when you make something important into a simple pass/fail check ("Can I talk my way past the guard or not?"), the game doesn't work anywhere near as well.
 

Hussar

Legend
I think people who object to social mechanics are missing the point.

In DnD, just play it out means you must essentially game your dm. If I know that my dm won’t be persuaded by a particular argument, then I will never use that argument.

Social mechanics have exactly the same goal as combat mechanics - create a neutral arena for resolving a task.

We wouldn’t want a dm to declare that you lost or won a fight without playing it out using the mechanics, right? Do social mechanics serve the same function.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
Cortex Prime comes from pioneers of social mechanics. For example, they needed a game where both Superman and Lois Lane were equally good choices to the play the game.

The Cortex system resolves a test by accounting for many factors simultaneously. So any relevant social factors, such as a relationship or an ethic, can increase the chance of success.

Because D&D only rolls a single d20 to represent a single factor, it is difficult to translate Cortex mechanics into D&D.



For D&D, perhaps a social asset, like a relationship with a loved one, is mechanically like a Tool. In challenges that involve this loved one, one can add the proficiency bonus to the ability check.

The social assets are roughly the same thing as a 5e "bond", "personality", and "alignment".

The bond can be a specific loved one, ones family generally, a favorite place, even a cherished object such as a family heirloom.

Personality adds to the check when the encounter offers the opportunity to play out a specific quirk.

Alignment can be relevant to if a challenge can extravagantly demonstrate an ethical value.

If there is a skill challenge where a social asset also comes into play, then like a tool, one gains advantage to the check by applying both the skill and the social asset.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
One of the things I do with social encounters, which I think is supported by the current rules, is ask the players what they are trying to say. If there is an army on the way to attack your village and your asking for help from the orc tribe, they player might say something like "I make a speech about how the army will turn on the orcs after taking our village" they don't have to give the actual speech, that in itself would be enough for a roll. They might add to it to try for advantage, perhaps trade and a treaty in a valley in the mountains that sets boundaries between the village and the orc tribe in exchange for their help.

I have thought of doing something like skill challenges, but tend to stick to something simple. Make your case, roll with advantage/disadvantage, Charisma may or may not be useful (the orc tribe might value strength so a warrior adds strength instead if Charisma bonus to the check).

You could probably make quite a robust social system, but then I honestly think role-playing, however you do it, and a simple roll is better.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
This goes back to Rob Donoghue's analysis of D&D's strength being combat, because combat combines the swinginess of the d20 (which makes the rolls exciting) with rolls that individually are low stakes ("Do I deal some hit points damage or not?") even if they add up to something important in aggregate. But when you make something important into a simple pass/fail check ("Can I talk my way past the guard or not?"), the game doesn't work anywhere near as well.
The funny thing is that for many combat isn't very exciting in the attack roll (the d20) by itself. It is fairly well established that most PC will hit 65% of the time (+/-5%). It is actually somewhat predictable, which is why creating encounters to a particular difficulty isn't too hard. What makes combat exciting is when those chances drop significantly and hitting becomes rarer OR when the low stakes pile up enough that further loss (or gain) becomes more meaningful. When you have 50 hp, 5 damage isn't a big deal; but when you are down to 10 hp, 5 damage suddenly becomes much more meaningful.

Because the stakes are (at least potentially) life or death, a single roll would be more exciting simply because the point of failure would likely be ultimate--ending the game for that PC in all likelihood.

How important does "talking your way past the guard" become? Is it life or death? Not likely. If talking doesn't work, intimidating might, failing that direct force or finding some other elusive way (sneaking or another path) works typically.

So, in essence, it can be like combat. First "attack" is Charisma (Persuasion) to "talk your way by the guard." If that fails (a miss), you attack with Charisma (Intimidation), then perhaps (failing that as well) leave and try Dexterity (Stealth). Most combat in 5E is often resolved in 2-4 rounds, so those would be your three "rounds" for the social challenge. The greatest difference is at any point, success can "end the social combat" with victory for the PC. Failure at all stages would be tantamount to defeat in the social combat (with the PC being arrested perhaps?).

Many 5E threads have talked about the problem with the swinginess of the d20 when it comes to ability checks because of it's single-roll resolution system, but what I think often people fail to understand is that "failure" in one roll doesn't necessarily mean failure in the social encounter. We know failing an ability check could represent "success at a cost or with a setback" or simply failure to make progress, in which case you can try again.

[In my own game, when you fail at an ability check (or repeated saving throw), the DC increases by 1. If the DC gets to a point where even a natural 20 fails, you fail. There are no further attempts and no success at a failure possible. If at any point, you fail by 1 or 2, then it could be success at a cost or with a setback.]

You can elaborate further on the first "attack" of Charisma (Persuasion) in the example above by implementing a 3-strikes policy, similar to death saves. Something like if you win three contested checks against the guard, you talk your way past. If the guard wins, you have to try a new tactic (such as Intimidation), with the chance of another win by getting three successes before three failures. You could even implement a natural 20 counts as "critical" and is an automatic win, while a 1 could count as two failures (a la the death save concept).

BUT the issue (IMO anyway) with things like this is it is just a bunch of dice rolls. I would prefer players role-play the social encounters, and leave the "roll-playing" to the combat. Yes, you could expand features to enhance these rolls just like we do in combat if you wanted to, and then you can spend an hour on a social challenge instead of a combat encounter and award XP for it as well.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
Has anyone here ever been in a D&D game where they (or another player) decided to pick a fight because it would be fun? I’d imagine most of us can think of examples. We just leveled up and want to see the new abilities. Just got that flametongue and want to see how it works. A new spell you’re dying to use.

What if D&D was just as much fun if you negotiated your way through a conflict? Or intimidated or lied to get your way? What of the game… the actual play where you roll dice and declare actions… was equally interesting for social encounters as combat encounters?

Wouldn’t it be cool if the characters gained new abilities that added to this area of play?

Wouldn’t that open up some possibilities for play? For the events of play to be a bit more varied than endless combat encounters? Or just trying to guess what the GM’s already decided is the solution to their NPC puzzle?
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
Which is 100% a non starter for DnD. Social mechanics are in the same category as psionics. And that category is labeled “stuff you will never see in DnD”.
Soo....what are Flaws, Alignment, Ideals, Traits, and Bonds?

. . . The dream would be social rules as detailed as the combat rules, so that would be hundreds of pages. You'd have social based abilities. People and creatures would have Social Armor. Everyone would have a Base Social Bonus. Everyone would have Social Life. You'd have social backgrounds and archtypes and feats. You'd have Renown, Standing, Honor, and other such social rank rules. You would have items and equipment that had effects. And all magic would be re written to fit the social rules. The best way would to have a dual "classic combat side" and a "new social side" much like a multiclassed character. So you might be a 3rd level fighter/2nd level commoner. The social classes would get abilities per level, just like other classes. And when you defeat someone socially you'd get loot and XP. . .
I think someone detailed such a dream system a few posts earlier. Heck, I wrote a social system twice as complex as the combat system, because combat uses one attribute (mostly Physical) while socializing uses the other two, if not all three (Mental and Metaphysical). Social armor = Mental Protection. Base Social Bonus = Metaphysical Bonus. Social Backgrounds . . . that sounds redundant. "Movement" isn't just a skill that gets you where you want to be in combat, it's also important in dancing, or say, butting ahead of fellow dignitaries in an undignified manner (not naming names).

What is a social challenge? It's getting what your character wants, without drawing weapons.
 

Hussar

Legend
[In my own game, when you fail at an ability check (or repeated saving throw), the DC increases by 1. If the DC gets to a point where even a natural 20 fails, you fail. There are no further attempts and no success at a failure possible. If at any point, you fail by 1 or 2, then it could be success at a cost or with a setback.]
Oohh, thanks for that. I like that idea. Although, to be fair, I just tend to use autosuccess anyway most of the time. It's actually fairly rare to see a bunch of skill checks, and, if they have enough time to retry, I'll generally just say, "this much time passes and you succeed".
 

Hussar

Legend
Soo....what are Flaws, Alignment, Ideals, Traits, and Bonds?
IME? Pretty much pointless. After all, they don't have any mechanical impact whatsoever. If I ignore my Flaw, for example, what happens? Nothing. I get a cookie if I remember to use it - gain a point of Inspiration - but, again, IME, DM's don't even bother with it.

I've seen exactly one module that actually used BITF in the game - Riddle of the Raven Queen - Dungeon Masters Guild | Dungeon Masters Guild Riddle of the Raven Queen. Outside of that one module, I've never seen them even remotely referenced in any WotC products. It's like the 2 weeks of Iron Rations you wrote on your AD&D character sheet - it's just there but no one ever actually worries about it.

Unless D&D actually takes the time to give any sort of mechanical heft to BIFT's, they're largely irrelevant.
 

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