D&D 5E What is balance to you, and why do you care (or don't)?

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Guest 7034872

Guest
In the last two or three sessions of our party I've learned something that encourages me: we have one player who intentionally set his character at a much lower level than the rest of the party so he could be the twelve-year-old gnomish padawan of another PC. Twice his character has been completely greased by attackers due to unlucky rolls. Only fast action from the party cleric has managed to bring him back (both times he was down on turn one and the attackers had not diverted their attention from him). For the longest time, he has hardly been able to do anything in combat except act as a pincushion.

And he loves it. He thinks it's the most engaging, exciting, and novel part of the whole adventure. And I guess I agree with him. Balance is important, I'll still say, but I see clearly now it is far from all-important.
 

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In the last two or three sessions of our party I've learned something that encourages me: we have one player who intentionally set his character at a much lower level than the rest of the party so he could be the twelve-year-old gnomish padawan of another PC. Twice his character has been completely greased by attackers due to unlucky rolls. Only fast action from the party cleric has managed to bring him back (both times he was down on turn one and the attackers had not diverted their attention from him). For the longest time, he has hardly been able to do anything in combat except act as a pincushion.

And he loves it. He thinks its the most engaging, exciting, and novel part of the whole adventure. And I guess I agree with him. Balance is important, I'll still say, but I see clearly now it is far from all-important.
Most people that are worried about balance fear that the DM will not let them shine their fair share. But it is exactly the DM's job to make everyone shine in turns. Be it by creating situation or manipulating events so that the player has a chance to let his/her character the star of the event.
 

G

Guest 7034872

Guest
Most people that are worried about balance fear that the DM will not let them shine their fair share. But it is exactly the DM's job to make everyone shine in turns. Be it by creating situation or manipulating events so that the player has a chance to let his/her character the star of the event.
I think that's right. The thing he's loving about his character is the extent to which his vulnerability drives the party to alter its tactics in combat and its decisions about when to engage in combat and when to duck and run. The whole adventure is much dicier now because of him.
 

I think that's right. The thing he's loving about his character is the extent to which his vulnerability drives the party to alter its tactics in combat and its decisions about when to engage in combat and when to duck and run. The whole adventure is much dicier now because of him.
And I am sure that people are much more engaged in the story exactly because of this. Balance of power can be done both from character to character and to level to level. A weak character at low level can become very strong and vice versa. It is the interaction between the players that will make the story interesting or simply a boring simulation. When all classes are equal all the time, they all feel bland and tasteless. With variety, comes interesting interactions. This is what D&D is all about. The gnome in your group is playing the underdog, but this underdog is well liked that he became an essential part of the game. This is the kind of game that I really like.
 

HammerMan

Legend
--- dropping the gender-based stat differences (for Humans for sure, maybe for some demihumans also)
I will answer more in-depth in another thread but this one was a big no go.

My first co player was a woman that wanted to be a warrior and by the end of the second campaign we had equal men to woman. Now it was 2e but by then we had heard of these “ideas” and they did not go over well
 


And I am sure that people are much more engaged in the story exactly because of this. Balance of power can be done both from character to character and to level to level. A weak character at low level can become very strong and vice versa. It is the interaction between the players that will make the story interesting or simply a boring simulation. When all classes are equal all the time, they all feel bland and tasteless. With variety, comes interesting interactions. This is what D&D is all about. The gnome in your group is playing the underdog, but this underdog is well liked that he became an essential part of the game. This is the kind of game that I really like.
There should be a linear and quadratic option for both magic and martial. Being sidelined the longer the game goes on is crappy balance. If you dislike that, feel free to be the chump you require. You don't have to write down or use all the class abilities, which makes it even easier to play the underdog. This argument is always just a thinly disguised excuse for making everyone else's non-caster the BMX Bandit.
 

I had the opposite group- they loved UA and everything in it!

Fortunately, after a few levels, their Barbarians and Cavaliers tended to crash and burn thanks to forced roleplay requirements.

"I'm sorry, but as Bobo the Barbarian is not high enough level to trust Clerics, you'll be healing for 2 weeks. I suggest you play a different character this session."

"I mean, yes, attacking the demon head on is suicidal, but you must attack the strongest enemy, and you're not allowed to retreat, so..."
I was... not a fan of those RP restrictions, because they tended to irritate and create a hassle for the rest of the party,. This basically meant that the group ALSO had to abide by many of them (no ambushes, sneaking, rejecting quests, etc). In Fate/SW, I deal with this by awarding the group a bennie/fate chip when the decision impacts everyone (usable by anyone), and the individual player the chip when it mainly just impacts them. Takes the sting out of putting up with another character's flaws.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
I was... not a fan of those RP restrictions, because they tended to irritate and create a hassle for the rest of the party,. This basically meant that the group ALSO had to abide by many of them (no ambushes, sneaking, rejecting quests, etc). In Fate/SW, I deal with this by awarding the group a bennie/fate chip when the decision impacts everyone (usable by anyone), and the individual player the chip when it mainly just impacts them. Takes the sting out of putting up with another character's flaws.
Oh don't get me wrong, roleplay restrictions as a mean to balance a character class are pretty terrible, overall, but some still survive to this day in some form or another, because it's just something players of the game expect/want (ie, the Paladin).

I was simply pointing out that the Barbarian and the Cavalier's restrictions basically turned powerful classes into unplayable disasters fairly quickly, unless the DM took steps to circumvent their impact.

Which I had no real reason to do- I felt the classes were over...tuned, we'll say, and, at least in that era of gaming, the idea of banning something from a TSR book was a very foreign concept to the people I played with.

I didn't start seeing that sort of behavior until much later in my gaming.

In retrospect, I think in most games, the Barbarian was probably fine as a class- it's most damning features rewarded you for having high ability scores, which was already an issue with AD&D- more is more for some classes. Being allowed to roll exceptional Strength to get higher bonuses for having an 18 in the first place is an example of this, and the Barbarian gaining a d12 Hit Dice and effectively double hit point bonuses goes along with this.

The increased bonus to AC from Dexterity is a little harder to judge, since Barbarians couldn't wear the best armors to claim it. You would need a fairly high Dexterity to make your "non-bulky armor" better than the heavy plate mail of the Fighter, Paladin, and Cavalier.

The rest of the class was a hodgepodge of various random abilities, some of which would be considered "ribbons" by modern design.

A Barbarian with less exceptional ability scores wouldn't be a problem, really. But combine this with the new die rolling systems presented in the UA and things might get...weird.

I always played with the standard 4d6 drop 1 x6, though with the addition of this book, you get Comeliness, which was only used in one campaign I've played in, though it was the longest running of these.

This led to more min/max behavior, as the players had noticed Charisma was...less important in their dungeon dwelling pursuits. I was weird and hated skimping on it. This didn't have immediate payoffs, though things did improve for me much later in the game, when it became less about our personal power, and more about dealing with powerful NPC's- a factor many other campaigns I've played in have lacked.

Topic Shift: This brings up one of those things a game developer can't really balance against- how useful are some ability checks to one's game?

Almost every game of D&D is going to rely heavily on physical ability scores for combat, and mental ones for spellcasting. Saves for some will always be common. Even with light exploration, you're going to need to climb, jump, and swim from time to time.

But the value of the third pillar, Social Interaction, and how valuable Charisma is as an ability score- this is out of the hands of the developers. They can only suggest this kind of play, as it varies from group to group, campaign to campaign.

Modern game design attempts to adjust for this by making Charisma important to several character classes beyond social engagement- this unfortunately, however, leads to players of Bards, Paladins, Sorcerers, and Warlocks, being the go to characters to be able to delve into this arena with regular success- and players with less stellar checks are often marginalized (sometimes not by the DM, but themselves, as they feel their character will just be ignored, or somehow make things worse).

I often wonder if this approach is good, bad, or neutral in the attempt to balance Charisma against the other ability scores. I think it's mostly neutral, since you can't rely on the DM to make it an equal part of the game. Indeed, I know some DM's who make it an integral part of the game, but that actually leads to imbalance when you have a stereotypical 9 Charisma Dwarf Fighter with no training in social skills attempting to share the spotlight with a 16 Charisma Half-Elf Rogue who decided that Expertise in Persuasion was the way to go.

There are, thankfully, other forms of interaction with NPC's that require non-Charisma checks- knowledge skills or Insight, but if your class doesn't particularly favor Intelligence or Wisdom, you might find yourself in trouble here as well.

Then add onto this the classic love of the game to have spells as "I win" buttons, and it becomes apparently how easily a Fighter could become marginalized outside of the Combat Tier.

Note, I'm not saying he will be as a matter of course- even though I and others have seen this play out, it's not universal. Many campaigns have Fighters able to interact with all aspects of the game well.

But it just goes to show that balancing the game's rules well (since you can strive for perfection, but will never reach it) is only half the problem. You also need to give the DM/GM/Referee/Storyteller/Judge appropriate guidance so that they will use what is given to them properly.

And no matter how well you accomplish this, the old adage about leading a horse to water still applies. That doesn't mean that building the game well and teaching people to play well isn't a worthy effort- it very much is!

But there's always going to be situations where even the best game ever made will result in a mediocre experience for those involved. Some people look at this and say "balance isn't important" as a result.

But if a well-balanced game is no better or worse than an unevenly balanced game, then why spend money on game books? We could just as easily play Cops and Robbers and resolve "I shoot you, you're dead" "Nuh, uh, I ducked behind cover!" with the flip of a coin.
 

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