What is Greyhawk?

Coroc

Hero
We should realize there's a bit of illogic in this combination. Things stronger than you that will destroy civilization (either in one shot, or by defeat-in-detail) are about to succeed, but you should not expect to beat them? And the status quo of continuing threats has been around.. for centuries, right?

Statistically, then... shouldn't civilization be gone by now? The scale of actual threats to civilization has to cap out at roughly the scale of threats you expect people in the world to be able to handle, or the whole things falls apart in short order.

Nope, you forget that Greyhawk has the circle of eight, that is Elminster x 8, who although have neutrality as their principle might set things right again.
Then there is the thing with Iuz being a god with Oerth as his homeplane. Still the understanding back then was that gods although pretty much almighty should not intermingle to much in the world of the mortals.
But Iuz does that, he raises armies does quite mundane things for a god. But still there is a limit for him or other gods might interfere. So, I am afraid, civilization will not be destroyed so fast.

The construct is of course a kind of deus-ex-machine a tool for the DM. The party can become strong, even vanquish some of the lieutenants of the big bad guy, but they can never hope to win against the evil overlord. This warrantees that the motivation to go on quests never is gone (like in Dragonlance)
 

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
This warrantees that the motivation to go on quests never is gone (like in Dragonlance)
I’ve never ever in all my years seen a group of people who wanted to play in Dragonlance lose the motivation to go on quests just because the War of The Lance was over.

Of course, I’ve also never met Elminster or Drizzt or anyone else like that in FR, so maybe I just know very weird people.

Well, okay. I definitely know very weird people, but y’all know what I mean.
 

with a late start like that... the rest of your opinion isn't surprising. By the time of 2E, WoG's best adventures had already been done, and what came after wasn't so great. Not to mention, TSR shifted drastically over to the FR in the process. But WoG is a bit different from FR not just in tone, but in level of detail... where the FR are vastly detailed, WoG isn't.... that's something that appeals to some DMs, not others.
I started playing in 1980, and I don't think much of Greyhawk either.

Whatever unique character it may have once had was diluted by all official modules being set there, irrespective of character and tone.

And frankly, I just think Gygax was a really really bad writer.
 

Coroc

Hero
I’ve never ever in all my years seen a group of people who wanted to play in Dragonlance lose the motivation to go on quests just because the War of The Lance was over.

Of course, I’ve also never met Elminster or Drizzt or anyone else like that in FR, so maybe I just know very weird people.

Well, okay. I definitely know very weird people, but y’all know what I mean.
Well I cannot quite argue there, because I only played DL as gold box CRPG never as tabletop and read the books. Sure, you can do other things still after the war of the lance but it is still the top plot in the whole saga, also in the books.

In my greyhawk campaign the players are actually agents of Otiluke, but the difference is that the circle of eight is a major force of neutrality and maybe status quo whereas Elminster and Drizzt are major forces of good and change to the better.

In a way FRs Elminster and Dirzzt are also "higher up" for a group of PCs to meet, than most of the circle of eight, who are sometimes into quite mundane issues. FR or Greyhawk does in no way require that PCs are involved or meet some of these major forces to have a good campaign in either of those settings.
But in FR these two serve as a cavalry sometimes, to jump the fray, whereas in greyhawk Circle of eight are rather a tool to explain why evil did not yet have all out victory.
 

Hussar

Legend
Y'know, it's kinda funny. The most iconic adventures for Greyhawk - GDQ and T1-4 both end with the PC's challenging (and killing potentially) gods. On the other end, you have Paizohawk which wraps up with Savage Tide, where, like Queen of the Demonweb Pits, the PC's invade the Abyss and kill a demon lord and carve out an entire plane out of the abyss.

Nicely bookended. Kill gods at the start, kill gods at the end.

Yeah, nice low powered setting. :erm:
 

S'mon

Legend
So I thought I'd write a separate thread about the essence of Greyhawk, and what it means to me. A thread where people can discuss the essence of Greyhawk (whatever that might be) instead of complain about Dragonborn.

I would start by saying that Forgotten Realms is a great default setting for 5e. It has a long history and abundant products and novels that can be used to fill it out. We have people, many of them active on this board, who love all of this history, lore, and canon of the FR and can recite it chapter and verse; in addition, FR has an excellent wiki. I often make fun of FR for its various spellplaguesunderings and what not, but for what it is (the uber-setting, the generic D&D setting) it is great. So my a priori assumption is that Greyhawk shouldn't be that. We do not need TWO generic settings. So, with that caveat in mind, what is Greyhawk to me?

1. It's humano-centric. This doesn't mean that all PCs are humans, just that humans are the overwhelming default, and that great care has to be taken when deciding on non-standard options given the likely choices for adventuring.

2. It's small in scale. You aren't saving the Realms; you're making a buck. I say that partially in jest, but this is partly the aspect of Swords and Sorcery that needs to be played up in a Greyhawk setting. Small scale DOESN'T mean small stakes, however. You can save (or destroy) the village; but there should be a lot less of the "saving the world."

3. There's always something bigger, badder, and more mysterious. This is related to (2). You will never have the power of the Mages who destroyed the Sueloise civilization. There will always be the past glories or dangers, the stories of Vecna and of giant ships crashing from the sky, of beings that strode across the landscape, that are told around the fires at night.

4. Civilization is tenuous, at best. The great powers and empires are in decline and their best days are in the past, and it is always questionable if the forces of civilization will hold off the entropy and darkness. Progress is not assured. The forces of destruction are constantly howling and looking for a way in, and, more often than not, they are about to succeed.

5. People just don't like each other. What do I mean, "people?" Well, everyone. There are long-standing divisions; Suel, Baklun, Oerd, Flan- and that's just the humans. Different elves can be distrustful based on geography or type (what is a Valley Elf doing outside of the Valley?), and demi-humans and humanoids will be met with more (or less) suspicion depending on the location. But see ...

6. People should be suspicious. So civilization is tenuous, but also spread out. The Flanaess is huge, and poorly controlled. That means that outside of a few of the larger and cosmopolitan cities (such as Greyhawk) people will tend to be suspicious of outsiders; after all, if survival is perilous, you, too, would be careful about extending hospitality to people you don't know.

7. Greyhawk is a a DIY sandbox. This is kind of the key to what I think is a good Greyhawk; it should provide adventure hooks, but not prescribe what adventures there are. It should be the canvas on which to paint your own campaign.


So, what does Greyhawk look like? Like the first Conan movie- vast areas of emptiness, mysteries that abound, small in scale. It's not Tolkien, it's Lieber or Howard. But most importantly, it is the space to create your own Greyhawk.

Mostly points I agree with. I guess 'civilisation is tenuous' is true of FR too, but it always projects a 'things will work out alright in the end' feel, where Greyhawk tends to feel much more grim and doom-driven. Whether it ends with magic fading from the world as Pluffet Smedger writes the last volume of his magnum opus on the good old days (1983 box set) or ends with a Tharizduny apocalypse (Gygax's Gord series), there are no unequivocally happy endings here.

Greyhawk's nation-states map gives it a 15th century late medieval feel despite Gygax's Old West tropes, where FR is much more solidly a North American (to a large extent, specifically Canadian) frontiersman fantasy, divorced from much overt Medievalism.
 
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S'mon

Legend
Y'know, it's kinda funny. The most iconic adventures for Greyhawk - GDQ and T1-4 both end with the PC's challenging (and killing potentially) gods. On the other end, you have Paizohawk which wraps up with Savage Tide, where, like Queen of the Demonweb Pits, the PC's invade the Abyss and kill a demon lord and carve out an entire plane out of the abyss.

Nicely bookended. Kill gods at the start, kill gods at the end.

Yeah, nice low powered setting. :erm:

In Greyhawk you kill some Demon Lord and it ends one specific threat, it doesn't make the world all Rainbows & Unicorns. The low power of the demon lords, Arch-Devils, killable 1e Greyhawk gods et al gives the setting a feeling of mortality you don't really get in FR, where even the uber NPCs are designed to be untouchable and in official material the Metaplot tends to be paramount over individual campaigns - though WoTC is much better about that than TSR was IMO. And some FR campaigns involve god-slaying, notably Bloodstone where you dispatch Tiamat on your way to killing Orcus. They killed Orcus in my 4e FR game, too.

I tend to prefer FR to GH these days though, I prefer the more optimistic and open tone of FR to Greyhawk's tendency towards Grimdark.
 

Hussar

Legend
I think the one thing that differentiates GH from other settings is the degree to which people have internalized their own interpretations. Because there is so little material (comparatively) on the setting and so much of it is spread out over decades, people become very, very entrenched in whatever interpretation they have made for the setting.

I mean, sure, I get @Sacrosanct's point about the power of the setting. Forgotten Realms is rather known for having some pretty damn high powered NPC's roaming around. And so much of the fiction and writing about the Realms focuses on these high powered NPC's, whereas you don't have 2 or 3 hundred novels for Greyhawk floating around. Gord the Rogue wasn't exactly high powered after all.

But, there's a counter argument to this. The material that IS out there for GH does feature a LOT of very high powered individuals. As I said, you can bookend GH with Queen of the Demonweb Pits and Savage Tides. Then there are things like Isle of the Ape which feature incredibly powerful individuals (makes, sense, it's a very high level module.) On and on. Is it a low powered setting where you do local things? Sure. Sometimes. Is it a sprawling setting where massive upheavals occur? Yup, sometimes.
 


Zardnaar

Legend
I started playing in 1980, and I don't think much of Greyhawk either.

Whatever unique character it may have once had was diluted by all official modules being set there, irrespective of character and tone.

And frankly, I just think Gygax was a really really bad writer.

That's fine it's not for everyone.

I used to like FR a lot more but they blew it up a bit to often.
 

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