What is "grim and gritty" and "low magic" anyway?

[Wulf Ratbane]

#1, the above is simply not true. The level and type of magic in D&D is NOT inconsistent with the bulk of heroic myth.

And your counter example would be...?

#2, not everyone wants to emulate or capture that experience. Some of us want to play a game.

Why do I care about fiction or myth? Why does being present in some book suddenly make the game a deeper, better experience? Why is a literature-inspired setting better?

Apparently we're going to play a game of "Yes it is!" "No it isn't!" from here on out.

As an aside, claiming that I "haven't paid attention" or that you need to "instruct" me is pretty insulting.

I, among others, have pointed out repeatedly the ways that "standard" D&D differs from stories of fiction and myth. It is a wholly unique experience. You have not provided a single counter-example that rises to the level of pervasive magic found in D&D.

And it is important because there are elements of myth (and by extension, good fiction) that are diminished or destroyed as a result of high magic.

You are correct, not everyone wants to recapture that experience. We gng's have already conceded that point repeatedly. That doesn't change the fact that gng does a demonstrably better job of emulating classic myth. The question was asked, "What is grim and gritty?" and this has been put forward as the most demonstrable, explainable analogy. Grim and gritty is Conan. It is Lankhmar. It is Beowulf. It is Cthulhu. It is La Morte d'Artur. It is Lord of the Rings.

I congratulate you on the fine high magic game you run. That it appears to be a grand time, what with all the emotional weeping, does not change the fact that it does not emulate the struggles, conflict, and tension of classic myth as well as a low magic game.

Wulf

 

[Snoweel]

Yes it does.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

I, among others, have pointed out repeatedly the ways that "standard" D&D differs from stories of fiction and myth. It is a wholly unique experience. You have not provided a single counter-example that rises to the level of pervasive magic found in D&D.

He-Man and She-Ra. Or how about Hercules: The Legendary Journies? Oh, and you can't forget Xena: The Warrior Princess.

No, wait, I got it! Dragonball Z!!!

 

[S'mon]

I think Dragonball-Z epitomises what I don't like about power-overload settings...

I think my own D&D campaign is sort-of "grim & gritty high magic" - magic is occasionally altered from regular D&D, but mostly just that defensive magics are better developed relative to offensive stuff - there are lots of anti-teleport & anti-scry shields, but that's a natural response to the threat scrying & teleporting pose. The world is quite a grim one, and not very 'balanced' - sometimes people with Wishes slaughter low-levellers, and no divine referee steps in to prevent it. The PCs, around 12th level now, were cheering last night as they finally defeated the CR20+ BBEG who's been slaughtering PCs for the past two years of gaming!

 

[I'm A Banana]

And it is important because there are elements of myth (and by extension, good fiction) that are diminished or destroyed as a result of high magic.

Well, first of all myth != good fiction. And good fiction != good game.

Okay, let's see here, let's do The Odyssey, but within the confines of D&D rules....first, let's do the 'crucial elements of the story.'

#1: Odysseus is a sneaky fighter who has won a great war, and wants to get home. His defining trait is his cunning and wit.
#2: Posseidon has a vested interest in making Odysseus & crew go through a long, obnoxious route to get home.
#3: Through a series of stops on the way, Odysseus is jerked around by some gods, and gets home. Those stops are the adventures in the campaign.

Now, to D&D-ify:

1) Well, since we have (let's say) 5 players, we'll need 4 main characters. So let's say Odysseus (sneaky fighter) had three of his heroic buds along for the ride: Jozan, Kyrrwyn, Mialee, and Regdar. Yes, I know they don't sound Greek, but that's hardly a problem with the d20 levle of magic.
2) The Trojan War just ended. In it, the Achean fleet and their heroes invaded Troy, killed their people, and took their stuff. So these guys can't be first level -- let's make 'em 15th (hey, they're heroes!), and the GP they get to spend on character wealth is a combination of the equipment they've braught with them to fight, and the stuff they've found on the battlefield. Maybe their +3 greatsword is maybe Trojan-made...Mialee raided the temple to Hecate and got a few handy spells to cast, maybe even a few 8th level ones.
3) They want to get home, and but Troy is more than 1500 miles from Ithica (Teleport don't work, and, yes I know that isn't historically accurate, but that really doesn't matter, it doesn't destroy verisimilitude), and besides, they've got a crew of mooks (of varying levels, most below LV 12) to get home. They get out to sea, but a storm strikes and starts to blow them off course. Jozan, Great Cleric that he is, has remembered to prepare Control Weather and casts it. He offers a prayer to the god of storms, Zeus, and Zeus, taking a shining to ol' Jozan, tells Posseidon to knock it off for a bit. Of course, Possiedon doesn't like it, and so, using the same tools at his disposal, he has his merfolk druids in the area run a bit of interference -- counterspells galore, and a force of druids has more ammo than a lone cleric on a ship. Victory, Possiedon! But the party gets some XP for it, and gets sent to their next location, storm and all.
4) Probably for good measure, some aquatic monster attacks, maybe specifically targeting Jozan. You don't get to test the gods and get away with it that easily! By now, the PC's are aware they're in no natural circumstances. Risk +, fear + -- they've got a god who hates 'em, and only one healer amongst them! But the god didn't just smash 'em out right....so what's next?
5) They get blown to an island where the people are all at rest and at ease, lethargic and eatin' lotus. No one has ever left here before (dun dun duuuuun!), but the PC's, and a handful of crew members, manage to be some of the lucky ones -- because of their massive skill vs. the DC 25 potion, and the handful of higher-level shipmates/natural 20 saves. Epic adventure+! They've done something Unique in the World! They probably fight off drug-crazed cultists and their Mind Flayer leader, who is providing the drugs. Maybe they even liberate a few there, while they're chillin'. Adventure 1.
6) They want to get home, so they use a bit of divination.They can't scry on their homes (any king worth his salt isn't going to allow some perv with a crystal ball access to MeTV), but that's why they've stationed mooks outside, so they can see what's up. According to the Mooks, it is all good. A bit of find the path gets the quickest route home, and they go for it...
7) Possiedon blows them away as above, and sends another monster down their throats.....mooks are dying in droves because they keep attracting big sea creatures. Sacrifice, Bad Consequences +++! The PC's probably realize a God can't be faught, and decide that further "just trying to get home" is pointless....they decide to ride it out, and do what they can to help the wounded. For good measure, Jozan does one of those oh-so-destrutive divinations to find out "should I continue to try and get directly home?" magic-8-ball-god says "Outlook not so good." Crap.
8) Maybe they land at a few more islands, some with dungeons, some with natural disasters, most just with big monsters they can put an end to in stylish fashion to save the city. But they're still so far from home.....and what's worse is that now Mialee's divinations on the Mook are coming up negative....the mook has died, and they can't see into thier house anymore. Magic 8-ball deity says "Try Again Later." (Zeus doesn't want to irk Possiedon anymore, and agrees that the mortals need to learn their lesson). Mystery, Suspense ++! They'd teleport/island-hop, but they've still got their own lower-level goons to transport home, and Mialee's not interested at all in fetch-teleporting, since the most reliable description of the neighboring island she can get is from the old codger of the island who says something like "stupid neighboring island with it's evil barbaric ways!" Stupid insular city states and strange, strange locales not interacting!
9) AAAAH! CYCLOPS! Since the sea monsters destroyed some of the ships, and create food and water won't fill the stomachs of these couple of hundred people with Jozan alone, or the other few mooks who can cast it (there were about three clerics per ship, but after attrition, they're down to about three clerics. Period.), they need to raid the island for some chow. Slow Depletion of Resources ++! BUT, of course there is a monster guarding even this treasure, and being a banished half-deity (paragon), taking him on single-handedly ain't really an option. BUT, Odysseus rolls a good Knowledge (children of the Gods) check, and determines that this guy digs the alcohol. Getting a CR 20+ creature drunk is no mean feat, but it helps that Odysseus's Charisma is flabbergasting (and people call it a dump stat!). Clever Odysseus weasels the half-deity out of his sheep, gouges out his eyes, and runs away, taunting the entire time. Of course, even blinded, the creature put up a fight, and not everyone got out alive (poor Regdar ran distraction). God thing Jozan can resurrect! (we're giving our cleric a work out here!)
10) AAAH! WITCH! Baleful Polymorph has transformed them into sides of bacon, which, while delicious, are hardly fit to bring back. Odysseus comes to the fore again, his clever character and his obscene ranks in Diplomacy (combined with Charisma boosting items and diplomatic gear yoinked from Paris's vanity stash back in Troy). At least *someone* didn't treat it as a dump stat! Regdar gets eaten, and Jozan can't bring him back from that...(Loss+++!). Regdar's player whips up a new guy, a member of the crew who has proved himself time and time again, and who is being swiftly promoted in the ranks. And maybe when they get back to town, Jozan can use his pull to get him braught back to life....but maybe they'll be irked at him for pissing off Possiedon, too (danger+!)
11) AAAAH! HARPIES! Since Odysseus & co. still want to hear the harpy song, they put silence over the ship, except for the mast, where they strap themselves (humor, heroism ++!)
12) AAAH! WHIRLPOOLS! Scylla and Charybdis, easily Terrasque-level challenges, make short work of the rest of the crew & boats, and heavily damage the PC party. If only they would've made that DC 35 Profession (sailor) check! But even Odysseus couldn't save our land-locked PC's from their doom this time....the mooks..........are dead (Loss+++++!)
13) Home? The PC's make it to a friendly island, and tell their story (Perform checks all around....Odysseus, you saved them again! You even got them to send back tribute!). Then they're sent on their way...and a rumor (Krwyn's Gather Info check) says that maybe they can scry on Odysseus's kid....
14) Mialee gives it a whirl, but she's not very familiar with him....it takes a few tries, but fortunately, Possiedon isn't throwing any advanced Dragon Turtles their way, and she eventually does it.....and the kid is living in a swineherd's place....WTFBBQ? (Mystery+! Suspense+!)
15) They get home, and talk with Telemachus, find out the mooks are doing some damage in the home...a shame the PC's were only about level 10 when they left, just beginning to get their home and hideaway.....but if they just charge in, Od's wife is in danger of being massacred...even if they aren't....so, sneaky it is! And fortunately, Athena's Gifts (powerful magic items of disguise, also treasure for getting to LV 17) help them do it! Though the other three can ape their way through being old and poor wihtout jingling their magic too much, the world's only Charisma-Monkey wins yet again, with his magnificent Bluffs, Disguises, and Diplomacies....even against the Head Suitor, who is an of-CR challenge (one of zeus's bastards, after all...). In the aftermath of his drawing his Composite Longbow +2 that he got back in the day, but didn't bring to war for fear that the Trojan Monks would sunder it (and besides, he could probably find a better one in Paris's hoarde, or be given one by Agamemnon, that ol' codger...)....even though Mialee could mend it after that, it's magic wouldn't be restored, and it'd still have that little scratch that is quite unbefitting an heirloom.

There ya go, a classic tale of myth, adventure, and loss, in no way ruined by magic. Admittedly, it was a bit rail-roady (some DM's would've let them get home quick, and done Possiedon's punishment perhaps in the form of an earthquake-style campaign where they were forced to move the city itself, rather than the warriors from Troy), but I was following a rather strict campaign outline, and, admittedly, railroading was kind of the point (you can't fight the DM any more than you can fight the gods!).

The magic gives it a certain feel, it does NOT ruin the drama, especially when you don't assume the PC's are the only ones with it (verisilitude again)

 

[I'm A Banana]

He-Man and She-Ra. Or how about Hercules: The Legendary Journies? Oh, and you can't forget Xena: The Warrior Princess.

No, wait, I got it! Dragonball Z!!!

You say those like they're bad things....Thousands of people watched/watch those kind of shows and love them.

Also, to respond to the snarky, we ARE all playing a glorified game of make-believe here....playing a Dragonball Z RPG is in no way 'less of an artistic and emotional experience' than playing, I dunno, HARNWorld. They're different. No one is superior to the other; just more applicable to different tastes.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Wow, I've read this thread. There's a lot to be said for having too much time on your hands

As far as I can tell:

Hong hit it on the head earlier. Grim n Gritty & Low Magic mean wildly different things to different people. These terms are as loose as Powergamer, Munchkin or High Magic.

A 'bad' GM and/or 'bad' players can ruin any type of game with any rules setup you care to mention!


And a question what I thinked of:

If someone wants to run a game that is very different from 'core' DnD then why not find and buy a system closer to what they want to run? Would strike me as much easier than trying to houserule a game?

If I wanted to live in a bungalow, I would buy a bungalow. I wouldn't buy a block of flats and demolish everything above the ground floor...

 

[Piratecat]

If someone wants to run a game that is very different from 'core' DnD then why not find and buy a system closer to what they want to run? Would strike me as much easier than trying to houserule a game?

If I wanted to live in a bungalow, I would buy a bungalow. I wouldn't buy a block of flats and demolish everything above the ground floor...

The problem is, though, 95 out of 100 tenants only know how to live in a flat, so you have to advertise your new bungalow as a demolished block of flats in order to attract them.

I'm not sure the analogy is holding up, but you probably see what I mean.

 

[Afrodyte]

The problem is, though, 95 out of 100 tenants only know how to live in a flat, so you have to advertise your new bungalow as a demolished block of flats in order to attract them.

I'm not sure the analogy is holding up, but you probably see what I mean.

I get you, Piratecat.

Then again, you could say that [snip tasteless original comment].

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I think I can? I quite understand that the good old fashioned block of flats has tradition, familiarity and fond memories for a lot of people.

Still, I think its a shame!

There's so many good systems out there that are very different from the 'block of flats'. It makes sense to me to dust them off if you want something different. To sum it up my view:

1)Rules mechanics can make a game feel and play very differently.

2)Professional/published game designers tend to make better rules than I do. If not better mechanically then at least the presentation is prettier!

3)I'm way too scatty and disorganised to keep track of many complicated houserules! At least to do that and run a game properly. Without going slightly mad.

For example, I wanted to play a game in a sinister near future with evil (grim n gritty!) corporations, fantasy races, magic, guns, cybernetics and fairly lethal combat mechanics.

We could have 'houseruled' core DnD with technology, lethality and how magic interacts with this near future world.... but we're far too lazy - instead we dusted off Shadowrun and played it! All together a much simpler bungalow.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

#2: Posseidon has a vested interest in making Odysseus & crew go through a long, obnoxious route to get home.

Your mythology's a tad off... It was Posseidon's intention that Odysseus never get home by sea. Naturally, thinking that the world is all about him, Odysseus doesn't tell his men and sets sail, figuring he's too high a level for something like a piddly trip through the Mediteranean Sea to be overly difficult.

Naturally, he was proven wrong.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

You say those like they're bad things....Thousands of people watched/watch those kind of shows and love them.

Actually, I have given the whole Eternia-thing a few considerations as a game world. Granted, it wouldn't be as cheesy as He-Man/She-Ra, but I do see potential in a similar setting.

As for Dragonball Z, assuming that the RPG focused on Training as much as the series does, than I'm all for it. Otherwise it would easier to make an array of mass-destruction Arcane spells class abilities for Epic Monks.

At any rate, you're right about it being a matter of taste (of course, that means I was right earlier about it being a matter of taste, which also makes the hundreds of folks before me right about it being a matter of taste, which means that this conversation is only in continuation because of the pin heads that accuse all low magic GMs of being incompetant, railroading, power-mad GMs, thus proving that they're pin heads and everone else was right).

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Well, first of all myth != good fiction. And good fiction != good game.

Okay, let's see here, let's do The Odyssey, but within the confines of D&D rules....first, let's do the 'crucial elements of the story.'

#1: Odysseus is a sneaky fighter who has won a great war, and wants to get home. His defining trait is his cunning and wit.
#2: Posseidon has a vested interest in making Odysseus & crew go through a long, obnoxious route to get home.
#3: Through a series of stops on the way, Odysseus is jerked around by some gods, and gets home. Those stops are the adventures in the campaign.

Now, be careful. It almost sounds like the DM is ready to change the rules of magic to railroad his players because he doesn't like it when they use magic to come up with creative solutions.

1) Well, since we have (let's say) 5 players, we'll need 4 main characters. So let's say Odysseus (sneaky fighter) had three of his heroic buds along for the ride: Jozan, Kyrrwyn, Mialee, and Regdar. Yes, I know they don't sound Greek, but that's hardly a problem with the d20 levle of magic.
2) The Trojan War just ended. In it, the Achean fleet and their heroes invaded Troy, killed their people, and took their stuff. So these guys can't be first level -- let's make 'em 15th (hey, they're heroes!), and the GP they get to spend on character wealth is a combination of the equipment they've braught with them to fight, and the stuff they've found on the battlefield.

Why stop at 15th? You running a low magic game or something? Why aren't they 20th level? Are you afraid that 20th level heroes are capable of things that 15th level heroes are not?

3) They want to get home, and but Troy is more than 1500 miles from Ithica

Since when is distance a factor with teleport? What? They changed the spell in 3.5? Now why do you suppose they felt they had to go and do something like that?

Besides, it's not as if they couldn't just plane shift away and back. That'll get you back within range of where you need to be.

Crew, cargo, and all the beer they could want go into their portable hole. Mialee says, "Hold your breath for just 6 seconds, boys!" and bam! They're home.

If they don't have a portable hole, Mialee makes one. Or two. Only a damned fool of a wizard doesn't have Craft Wondrous Items.

Barring that, they send their crew off to enjoy a short vacation in paradise and cut off their ears, taking the ears home with them. On arriving home-- whether by teleport or wind walk, who cares?-- they cast true ressurrection on their crew members. Every crew member who prefers the real world to the afterlife comes back. (Hades starts to object, but realizes that the spell doesn't work that way and he doesn't get a say anymore.)

Perhaps they'd rather cast Gate. They're buddied up with Zeus (good buddy to have) so they open a Gate to Mt. Olympus, party with the nymphs for a while, then Gate home.

Can't cast Gate? Buy a couple of scrolls. Or summon something that can cast it for you.

Ooh! How about Teleportation Circle? That's a great way to move an army and its ill-gotten loot.

[snip]

They pretty much never see the rest of that adventure.

Wulf

 

[Piratecat]

In your last big "plot," after all, there was no divination, no teleportation/etherealness/astral, and to some degree even ressurrection was affected.

No on the latter; resurrection was unaffected. While the other temporary changes were much more for mood (trying to enhance the feeling of claustrophobia and isolation) than for tactics or plot channeling, I certainly see your point. I'll be curious whether future adventures which work fine but don't cripple abilities change your opinion slightly on this aspect. We'll have to see.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

No on the latter; resurrection was unaffected. While the other temporary changes were much more for mood (trying to enhance the feeling of claustrophobia and isolation) than for tactics or plot channeling, I certainly see your point. I'll be curious whether future adventures which work fine but don't cripple abilities change your opinion slightly on this aspect. We'll have to see.

Well, again, I haven't said that high magic isn't fun, nor that it can't be challenging, just that it doesn't do a very good job of modelling the kinds of challenges which typically face the heroes of myth.

There are different challenges, and there are different solutions. It's different, and inasmuch as one wants an experience that is not different from classic myth and fiction, that can be a problem.

That's all I'm sayin'. I think that's all anybody who's on the GnG side of this argument is saying.

Wulf

 

[WizarDru]

The further the discussion goes, the more I see hong's point.

Even without magic items, in a totally non-magic setting, D&D won't create the 'grim-and-gritty' setting that I think some folks envision for it. A 20th level fighter or barbarian is still a thing of terror, magic weapons or no.

A human fighter has something on the odds of 13 feats, four attacks at the maximum BAB for PCs in the game, one excellent save (and in a low magic world, the most important of the three) and the ability to use virtually any weapon or armor he can lay his hands upon (though it may bost him a feat to do so). A rogue is equally puissant in such sitautions. An appropriately tricked out archer can drop whole armies, if he has the breathing room.

Does that accurately reflect fiction or myth? I'm not sure that it does. I'm not saying there's a problem with either approach, but it seems to me that a lm/gng game would need to do far more than just remove magic from the equation. The very nature of the game would preclude it.

Myths and stories don't need to concern themselves with the trifles of what makes a good game, which like the 'what makes a good book doesn't necesarrily make a good movie' argument may be beyond the scope of this discussion, I think. The point merely is that Beowulf had only a couple of monsters in his world to battle, not dozens of thriving monster ecologies existing parallel to each other.

I both agree and disagree with some of the things Wulf has said, for example. Having run "Lich Queen's Beloved", where the PCs go to the Astral and take the smack to the Lich Queen of the Githyanki herself, I can say that Wulf is right in that the PCs dropped 250 Githyanki warriors in a matter of rounds. Taking out the whole invasion force, if it bunched up for those area damage spells, wouldn't have been hard. They didn't after that encounter, of course, but the point still stands.

However, I've also got a shadowdancer who rolled an 86 on a skill check, and an elven archer who can routinely his the mid-50s on her spot checks. The wizard isn't the one deactivating that Sphere of Annihilation trap. Could he? He could have almost certainly done so, if he could have discovered it. But seeing as he lacked the skill to detect the trap, it would have been lethal to him. Which is why they sent the rogue on ahead to find and deal with the problem. The wizard can trump many abilities, if he's prepared for the situations...but the wizard and the other players often don't get to choose their own battlefields, or the time of the battle. I routinely hear "what do you mean, we're out of teleports?" or "I didn't prepare that today. I can do it tomorrow..." just as often at 23rd level as we did at 3rd. In all three of the last three sessions, in fact.

And there are plenty of things that even 23rd level characters can't do in 6 spells. Convince a rogue group of Celestials to change their minds about leaving the host and becoming guardians of the Prime, for example, or forcing a deity to involve himself directly in a inter-planar war, for another.

Ultimately, I see both styles as having appeal. Sometimes I want to be in Lankhmar, other times I want to be in Dragaera. Both are fun.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

That's all I'm sayin'. I think that's all anybody who's on the GnG side of this argument is saying.

Pretty much sums it up.

 

[tauton_ikhnos]

For me, low magic == some combination of following factors:

- rare magic
- lack of strategic magic, possibly tactical magic
- magic which has high cost (such as 1 CON per spell level)
- magic which is culture/society restricted (cast Invis, go to Jail)

From story perspective, successful game stories are about either challenge or relationships. Magic (high, low, or other) only affects challenge.

It affects other things as well, but they are not story. At most they are "feel", "mood", "genre". Star Trek was Old West stories in space - only difference from story perspective was what challenges they faced.

I prefer high magic. I like the feel, mood, genre. And I am good at challenges at that level. But that's all it is.

To use Odysseus & Poseidon example:

Fundamental relationships are Poseidon & Odysseus, Odysseus & His Men, Odysseus & Strange/Dangerous Places. The challenges are what Poseidon puts in way of Odysseus.

In a low magic game, that is distance and man-eating islands.

In a high magic game, that is interplanar journey on River Styx, with Odysseus divinely cursed with dimensional anchor... sure, he could send men home, but can't get there himself.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Even without magic items, in a totally non-magic setting, D&D won't create the 'grim-and-gritty' setting that I think some folks envision for it. A 20th level fighter or barbarian is still a thing of terror, magic weapons or no.

I don't think anyone has suggested that the only change necessary for a low-magic, grim and gritty setting is the removal of magic-using classes and magic items.

Does that accurately reflect fiction or myth?

Well, yes, it accurately reflects a great many myths.

There's nothing wrong with Samson slaying whole armies armed with nothing but a jawbone and his mullet, but at the end of the day he has to walk home, he has to eat, he has to sleep, and he's mortal-- he retains certain essential qualities of humanity with which we can identify, and the world in which he lives has a verisimilitude more analogous to the realities of our own world than the Forgotten Realms.

Superhuman characters abound in mythology, but they still have a resonance (not to get to Jungian here) that you just don't get from high magic D&D.

Again, whether or not that is a good thing is a matter of taste. If you are lucky enough to have a DM like K.M. or Piratecat, you can still be entertained and challenged by high magic D&D.

Wulf

 

[francisca]

There's nothing wrong with Samson slaying whole armies armed with nothing but a jawbone and his mullet,

Bwah-haha-ha!

You get the award for mental image of the day!