What is "Iconic Fantasy"

[Hussar]

"4e no longer supports iconic fantasy."

This is a criticism I've seen more than once about 4e. It's cropped up from time to time in a number of different threads, under a few different variations. My problem is, I have no idea what it means.

Does "Iconic Fantasy" simply mean "Fantasy I like which is superior to any other fantasy" or is there something else to this?

I've always thought iconic means that its easily recognizable to everyone. So, what is iconic fantasy? I mean, most of fantasy is pretty obscure. Ask 100 people what Hyperborea is, and not that many can answer. Ask who Rhialto is, and you'd likely get even less. Heck, even ask who Fafrd is and I'll bet that 9 out of 10 people have no idea.

Ask them what Hogwarts is, and they'll get it in one. Who is Pikachu? Yup, know that one.

So, what exactly is "iconic fantasy"?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Ask them what Hogwarts is, and they'll get it in one. Who is Pikachu? Yup, know that one.

So, what exactly is "iconic fantasy"?

What's your point?

Ask them who Britney Spears is, and they'll get it in one. That doesn't make Britney Spears classical music.

Get a dictionary, and look up ICONIC. You don't need a thread for that.

 

[pawsplay]

I haven't heard that claim before. I'm familiar with "not swords-and-sorcery" and "not classic D&D" but not specifically what the OP is claiming.

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

"4e no longer supports iconic fantasy."

This is a criticism I've seen more than once about 4e. It's cropped up from time to time in a number of different threads, under a few different variations. My problem is, I have no idea what it means.

...

So, what exactly is "iconic fantasy"?

When used in that sense it seems to mean "containing the races and classes of AD&D 1st Ed." I'm not sure it's necessarily wrong, since I think a whole lot of modern EBP(*) fantasy originates from AD&D rather than LotR.


I don't agree with the AD&D definition, though, because I started playing D&D before then, so "iconic fantasy" to me means "Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Halflings playing Fighters, Clerics, Thieves and Magic-Users."


(* - "Extruded Book Product" - Ursula Leguin.)

 

[Gloombunny]

"iconic fantasy" means "the way I play D&D". It's used by people who have this weird idea that D&D, and particularly D&D the way they play it, is some sort of baseline of all fantasy fiction.

 

[Doug McCrae]

icon - "the object of great attention and devotion"

So in the wider world iconic fantasy would be Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Conan, Narnia, the Forgotten Realms books, Terry Pratchett, probably a bunch of anime like Spirited Away.

Among D&D fans it would be a similar list but with Harry Potter and Narnia down a couple notches cause they're for babies. Maybe add Moorcock and George RR Martin? I have no idea what geeks read these days.

The guy you quoted was probably using the wrong word, he most likely meant the heavy hitters on Gary's reading list - Tolkien, Vance, Conan, Leiber, Poul Anderson, Lovecraft, Moorcock.

 

[CleverNickName]

"iconic fantasy" means "the way I play D&D". It's used by people who have this weird idea that D&D, and particularly D&D the way they play it, is some sort of baseline of all fantasy fiction.

Beat me to it.

 

[Fieari]

Terry Pratchett defined this one pretty well, in his 1985 speech: Why Gandalf Never Married

The relevant quote:

But a part of my mind remained plugged into what I might call the consensus fantasy universe. It does exist, and you all know it. It has been formed by folklore and Victorian romantics and Walt Disney, and E R Eddison and Jack Vance and Ursula Le Guin and Fritz Leiber -- hasn't it? In fact those writers and a handful of others have very closely defined it. There are now, to the delight of parasitical writers like me, what I might almost call "public domain" plot items. There are dragons, and magic users, and far horizons, and quests, and items of power, and weird cities. There's the kind of scenery that we would have had on Earth if only God had had the money.

To see the consensus fantasy universe in detail you need only look at the classical Dungeons and Dragon role-playing games. They are mosaics of every fantasy story you've ever read.

Of course, the consensus fantasy universe is full of cliches, almost by definition. Elves are tall and fair and use bows, dwarves are small and dark and vote Labour. And magic works. That's the difference between magic in the fantasy universe and magic here. In the fantasy universe a wizard points his fingers and all these sort of blue glittery lights come out and there's a sort of explosion and some poor soul is turned into something horrible.

I think the backlash is that people think that the middle paragraph I quoted here may no longer be true. We WANT D&D to be a mosaic of every fantasy story we've ever read.

On that note, I think incorporating the new stuff is important, just so long as all the old stuff sticks around. The "Public Domain" plot items NEED to be there. All the cliches need to stay, because they are the baseline.

 

[Hussar]

What's your point?

Ask them who Britney Spears is, and they'll get it in one. That doesn't make Britney Spears classical music.

Get a dictionary, and look up ICONIC. You don't need a thread for that.

True, but, OTOH, Britney Spears is an iconic pop star.

I get the idea that certain works are iconic. I get that. LotR is an icon of fantasy. But, why is LotR considered an icon? Isn't it considered an icon because it is widely recognized? Isn't that what iconic means?

So, if LotR is iconic, why isn't Harry Potter? Or Robert Aspirin? After all, Thieves World is one of the first successful short story fantasy collections. (Not the first, I know.)

 

[MerricB]

On that note, I think incorporating the new stuff is important, just so long as all the old stuff sticks around. The "Public Domain" plot items NEED to be there. All the cliches need to stay, because they are the baseline.

Hmm. I think some of the old stuff needs to stick around, but I do think that some of it is becoming no longer relevant.

There *is* a consensual view of fantasy, but it's a changing thing.

Conan is still part of it, but I'm not so sure of the work of E R Eddison.

Cheers!