What is "Iconic Fantasy"

[Henry]

The answer, and this is something that is a tough thing to swallow, is that "mainstream fantasy" has changed dramatically in the past forty years -- more specifically, in the last twenty. It went from pretty simplistic "guys in armor and wizards in pointy hats and magic wands" to more complex characters like Cloud Strike and Princess Monoke, and materia and steampunk. It changed from Black Company to Full Metal Alchemist, and from solid renaissance-cusp technology to a mix of magic and 20th century tech. Just reading the articles on old Dragon magazines, like the articles on dungeoneering, versus reading the flavor text from something like Book of Nine Swords, can give one a sense of the changes.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

Terry Pratchett defined this one pretty well, in his 1985 speech: Why Gandalf Never Married

Ha. His first point of consensus (D&D elves being tall) isn't right.

 

[pawsplay]

Ha. His first point of consensus (D&D elves being tall) isn't right.

It's a generalization, and hence being right is not really a consideration at all. EDIT: To put it more directly, he is talking about the fantasy mosaic, and in Tolkien, elves are tall. D&D is contrary in this regard, but elves are still not as short as dwarves.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

It's a generalization, and hence being right is not really a consideration at all. EDIT: To put it more directly, he is talking about the fantasy mosaic, and in Tolkien, elves are tall. D&D is contrary in this regard, but elves are still not as short as dwarves.

I don't think that's really relevant. I mean, the point in question i's certainly not a big deal -- I'm not about to poop myself over the viability of an elven basketball team -- but when he says that D&D is fantasy consensus and the very first thing that comes to mind for him is not true to D&D, it's a nice reminder that nerds really can't agree on anything.My fantasy doesn't include dragons, plenty of people prefer fantasy with little or no magic, city adventures that have nothing to do with far horizons or scenery aren't hard to come by... It's good for him that he's got a good idea of what fantasy means to him. It doesn't even begin to mean the same thing for me, or for plenty of others.

Perhaps more relevant, though, is his description of the theoretical consensus fantasy universe as "a mosaic of every fantasy story you've ever read." Were there less variation among fantasy, I might call that a pretty good definition. But even if I were to accept the premise that consensus fantasy exists, it would be a mosaic of every fantasy story I've ever experienced, ones I've only read about, and plenty that I've never bothered to hack through. It most certainly would not be is a mosaic of every fantasy story that kids in 1985 read. Lord of the Rings and Dune are a good start, but my part in the mosaic would also cull ideas from Berserk, the Timmverse, Zelda, Metroid, Harry Potter, low-budget horror flicks, and everything else I've slogged through in my time on the planet.

That's ultimately the point here. There isn't a consensus, and even if there were, it wouldn't be the same one as 20 years ago. Teeth can be gnashed, but some of the old icons are growing older a lot faster than they're growing more iconic.

 

[pawsplay]

I think his use of the term "mosaic" is apt, and underscores everything in your post and summarizes why I agree with Pratchett.

Mosaic is not the same thing as Generically Generic.

 

[Hussar]

I think his use of the term "mosaic" is apt, and underscores everything in your post and summarizes why I agree with Pratchett.

Mosaic is not the same thing as Generically Generic.

But some of the icons are geriatrically generic.

In any case, we cannot even agree on what fantasy is. Is Dracula fantasy? Depends on who you ask? Is 20000 Leagues Under the Sea fantasy? How about The Lost World? Fantasy, as a genre is very vague, with tons of overlap with SF and Horror as well as other genres. To try to pin down a sort of "collective" fantasy is like trying to nail jello to a tree.

Case in point, Merlin points to Dune as fantasy. There's a fight just waiting for great clomping nerd boots.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

Mosaic is not the same thing as Generically Generic.

I agree. But in this case, the mosiac includes parts that say "Dragons!", parts that say "Dragons?", and parts that say "For the love of all that's holy, no fnording dragons." And the same for anime. And video games. And each individual work of literature. And entire genres.

There's no cohesion, and thus there's no consensus of what fantasy is. The parts are there, but they don't much in the way of a meaningful whole.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Fantasy is magic, monsters, dragons, heroes, castles, princesses, knights, both humans and inhuman creatures, demons, spells, rituals, swords, sorcery, quests, magic swords, farm boys killing giants, lost treausres, ancient crypts, lost civilizations, secret teachings passed down through families, dank caves, brave knights in armor, evil knights clad in black armor, kings, kingdoms in trouble, barbarians who are savage and honorable, lamentations of women, wise old men who pass on teachings and traditions, emissaries of terrible divine power, vampires, mysterious artifacts of another age, prophecies, noble men who fight for their faith, evil cultists, human sacrifice, everything and the kitchen sink, nothing but the basic, as well as a radnom dashes of history, folktale, myth, mystery, horror, science fiction, and all of the above.

* takes a deep breath *

Did I miss anything important?

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

Case in point, Merlin points to Dune as fantasy. There's a fight just waiting for great clomping nerd boots.

I was happy to read in the introduction to Star Wars Saga where it said "Star Wars is space fantasy at it's best..." I'd put it in the mosaic.

 

[pawsplay]

But some of the icons are geriatrically generic.

In any case, we cannot even agree on what fantasy is. Is Dracula fantasy? Depends on who you ask? Is 20000 Leagues Under the Sea fantasy? How about The Lost World? Fantasy, as a genre is very vague, with tons of overlap with SF and Horror as well as other genres. To try to pin down a sort of "collective" fantasy is like trying to nail jello to a tree.

But all of those are in D&D already. Vampires, kraken, and the Isle of Dread walked those paths long ago.