D&D 5E (2014) what is it about 2nd ed that we miss?

[Tony Vargas]

Losing hp*does* impede you: Your ability to avoid a killing blow.

Heh. That tautology took longer to pop up than usual. Yes, hps are a countdown to death, that that is their only function, and that hp-loss "wounds" do not in any other way impair you, is one of many 'realism' issues with them.

 

[Water Bob]

Heh. That tautology took longer to pop up than usual. Yes, hps are a countdown to death, that that is their only function, and that hp-loss "wounds" do not in any other way impair you, is one of many 'realism' issues with them.

One can assume that if lower hit points indicate that you are less likely to avoid a killing blow, then you can also assume that the character is getting tired, sloppy, out of breath, run-down, sweaty, his pulse pounding in his temples.

Loosing hit points is less like gaining a wound and more like being worn down from the fight.






I don't know about Fifth Edition, but Third Edition has Feats where the character continue to operate at -1 HP and beyond. Some 3E d20 versions have special rules that allow a character to continue functioning at a reduced level at 0 HP and sometimes beyond.

In 1E AD&D, Gygax speaks of characters continuing untill about -3 HP or so.

Yes, it's all abstract, but "conditions" can be assigned to a character based on how long it takes the character to heal.



In the d20 3.5 based Conan game:

Losing any HP, but above 1 HP? The character is being weathered down in a fight. His endurance is fading. He's less likely to avoid a killing blow (or a blow that does serious damage). Damage Points heal relatively quickly, so much of this type of damage is just resting up (sore muscles, maybe a bruise or a light cut).



At 0HP, the character is staggered. His actions are halved. His wound is akin to the above, but he's been brained pretty good. Or, he's taken a blow that makes him a lot less capable than he was before. But, he'll heal relatively quickly.


At -1 HP, the character takes a wound that drops him (unless the character has a special Feat that allows him to fight on in spite of this wound). This may not be a life-threatening wound, but it's enough to knock him out of the action. Maybe a blow to the head. He'll heal much, much slower.

At -10 HP, the character takes enough damage to kill him. Maybe he laid on the ground and bled from a wound. Maybe he was rammed through with a yard of steel. Maybe his head was chopped off. He's dead.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Helpful AD&D info people are having fuzzy memory about:

It's 20 Constitution and up that has built-in regeneration. It starts at 20 so that it is outside what standard PC races can manage without magic of some sort.

 

[Ancalagon]

Warhammer frpg (2nd) has two things about hp to teach us - one is a different approach, but the other *might* be applicable to D&D

First, in this sytem, a starting PC has about 10-12 hp (called "wound" in that system). A powerful champion, renowned as the best warrior of the land, has about 20 hp...

So in that system, adventurers gain a bit of hp as they advance (they do get tougher) but their main means of gaining resiliency is combat skills (better at dodging and parrying) and damage resistance (they shrug off minor blows essentially). Once you have 0 hp left, you are still standing - but every hit now can inflict critical damaged (stunned, knee smashed, disembowled, fun stuff) and can kill you. And I have to say, this is much more realistic than hp... BUT it takes more time to resolve than D&D style hp and is less "epic". It's a design choice.

Ok, what is applicable to D&D:

Well, if you get hit a bit, you can heal fairly rapidly *if you are lightly wounded*. Your natural healing rate is 1 hp/day AND a heal's check (a few min patching yourself up after a fight) can gain you 1d10 hp back. Also, non magical potions can restore 4 hp (a mixture of painkillers and stimulants?). However, if you have 3 hp or less left, you are considered seriously wounded. Your natural healing rate falls to 1/week, a trained healer may be able to restore 1 hp, and non-magical potions don't work anymore.

So by creating this "intermediate" zone of "seriously wounded" and changing the healing rules around it, the game avoided some of the weirdness that D&D has about hp. Such a system could be imported though! But the real question is, is it worth it?

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

A fairly good diversion of the OP and one that made me think a bit more on the subject.

Firstly, at our tables we have always hand waved HPs, and probably always will. It's just more convenient that way and saves us a lot of time.

But, from a purely game play theoretical view, regardless of system or platform, i've generally come up with the 2 separate interpretations of HPs and i prefer the 2nd one (as mentioned in a previous post).

The first one is HPs as health points and 2E with it's slow healing (without magic) and implied context fits more into this one. It's not perfect, mind you but it does the trick in a way that those "energy bars" in the fighting arcades do. Personally i was never a fan of the system for the same reasons many people here argue in favor of modeling some kind of injury system. I mean yeah, my 19 Con dwarf fighter can surely walk around with an orcish ax embedded in his head and slay orcs for a few hours, before even stopping for rest...... right..... immersion abounds...... But another reason i don't favor HPs as health points is the armor system as well. If HP is health then all armor should reduce damage (by percentile or fixed amount). And then you need regional-body part injury system that is just far too robust for P&P.

The other interpretation, HP as DP or "defense points" (a combination of luck, skill and stamina) fits closer to 4E and 5E modeling of the limited resource management. And if we look at it from the perspective of how far one is from being actually struck down or knocked out then it makes sense that PCs can partially regenerate this resource during the day, between encounters. Yes the system still lacks injuries as such, but:

Warhammer frpg (2nd) has two things about hp to teach us - one is a different approach, but the other *might* be applicable to D&D

First, in this sytem, a starting PC has about 10-12 hp (called "wound" in that system). A powerful champion, renowned as the best warrior of the land, has about 20 hp...

So in that system, adventurers gain a bit of hp as they advance (they do get tougher) but their main means of gaining resiliency is combat skills (better at dodging and parrying) and damage resistance (they shrug off minor blows essentially). Once you have 0 hp left, you are still standing - but every hit now can inflict critical damaged (stunned, knee smashed, disembowled, fun stuff) and can kill you. And I have to say, this is much more realistic than hp... BUT it takes more time to resolve than D&D style hp and is less "epic". It's a design choice.

As mentioned...... such solutions exist, at the expense of slowing down the game play. The question here is, if we actually think this slow down worth the overall immersion/fun factor this will bring and that is IMO based on a largely individual preference.

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

EDIT: double post

 

[Ancalagon]

But another reason i don't favor HPs as health points is the armor system as well. If HP is health then all armor should reduce damage (by percentile or fixed amount). And then you need regional-body part injury system that is just far too robust for P&P.

Actually, this is exactly what warhammer did. But it made for a somewhat long attack sequence

1: roll to hit
2: roll "countermeasures" if any (dodge or parry check)
3: determine hit location
4: determine how much armor there is on that location (look at your character sheet)
5: roll damage
6: deduce armor value (if any) and toughness bonus from damage
7: remove damage from HP

Typically an attack would do 1d10 + strength bonus, and the toughness bonus and strength bonus canceled each other out. So one hit could be very significant (if you take 10 wounds and you have 14 hp...)... or glance off your armor, or simply be parried and never "happen".

The other interpretation, HP as DP or "defense points" (a combination of luck, skill and stamina) fits closer to 4E and 5E modeling of the limited resource management. And if we look at it from the perspective of how far one is from being actually struck down or knocked out then it makes sense that PCs can partially regenerate this resource during the day, between encounters.

But look at the quote on page 8: "without the healing magic of clerics and paladins, adventurers would quickly succumb to their wounds"

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

Actually, this is exactly what warhammer did. But it made for a somewhat long attack sequence

1: roll to hit
2: roll "countermeasures" if any (dodge or parry check)
3: determine hit location
4: determine how much armor there is on that location (look at your character sheet)
5: roll damage
6: deduce armor value (if any) and toughness bonus from damage
7: remove damage from HP

And here i was, thinking that for a change i might invent something........ it's like i invented
warm water

But look at the quote on page 8: "without the healing magic of clerics and paladins, adventurers would quickly succumb to their wounds"

Ahhh..... the "wounds" word....... i'll pretend it's a 1-2E relic

 

[RotGrub]

2e Combat and tactics introduced 'wounds' with Critical hits. I thought it was a terrible system for DnD.

Yes, without those rules a Called Shot could be made to cause a bleeding wound or some other injury.

 

[RotGrub]

Back in the late 90's, I was in a Sea-Doo accident where I ended up with my back cracked in three places. I got up, hauled myself out of the water, and walked around a bit--even fought off the ambulance guys who were trying to convince me that I needed to go to the hospital.

I'm glad they convinced me, because, about 20 minutes later, I couldn't walk. I was in bed for a month and couldn't walk without a walker for another five months after that.

Had the impact happened because of a blow from a mace--a blow of the same type and energy--I could have easily fought on for another twenty minutes or so, only realizing how hurt I was after I stopped and the adrenaline subsided.

Yeah, that's a good example. What you didn't do in this case is summon your strength (second wind) and ignore the injury from that point forward.