What *is* it about paladins that makes people nutty, anyway?
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Aikuchi
Transient
ForceUser:
I'd imagine you havent had pleyers with a obvious Asian slant to their p[laying style in you gaming groups before (lol) - I was thinking that all these worlds from DnD are quite Westernise (paladins and druids and bards) and are popularly played here in Asia.
But The oreintal campaigns are also played here. I wonder the two sets play in terms of depth?
I'm not even sure the level of Druidic playing here is even Up to par to the Druid playis of those in cultures who actually have Druidic histories
I'm almost feel like sitting down with American friends to start a full blown OA / Asian DnD game and wther it'll have any problems because I see it from a slightly different perspective.
But the world if getting smaller and most religions and pihlosophies are being exbraced the word over!
Although, I think some players might be a little put off by the fact that you can really loot as much in asian settings and the very much imporatnt concept of giving and getting 'face'.
I'd imagine you havent had pleyers with a obvious Asian slant to their p[laying style in you gaming groups before (lol) - I was thinking that all these worlds from DnD are quite Westernise (paladins and druids and bards) and are popularly played here in Asia.
But The oreintal campaigns are also played here. I wonder the two sets play in terms of depth?
I'm not even sure the level of Druidic playing here is even Up to par to the Druid playis of those in cultures who actually have Druidic histories
I'm almost feel like sitting down with American friends to start a full blown OA / Asian DnD game and wther it'll have any problems because I see it from a slightly different perspective.
But the world if getting smaller and most religions and pihlosophies are being exbraced the word over!
Although, I think some players might be a little put off by the fact that you can really loot as much in asian settings and the very much imporatnt concept of giving and getting 'face'.
davidschwartznz
First Post
Yeah, but if a paladin is losing his powers for acting out of character, then presumably some sort of characterization is involved, yes?ForceUser said:Sounds like we both might fall under the category of gamers who "prefer characterizations and narrative [and] believe that these are the most important elements of a game." However, in my experience, many other players enjoy a more superficial (but no less legitimate!) experience of rock-'em-sock-'em adventures. I doubt such players spend time analyzing what they've learned from D&D (except for tropes such as "avoid dragons whenever possible").
I have a feeling the problem with paladins is that a lot of people don't understand the alignment system - specifically that it's about a useful as any other pop-psychology categorization in predicting how someone acts.
ThoughtBubble
First Post
The fact that there's enouggh text pertaining to the removal of paladin abilities to make it a blip on the radar. There are rules in the game that state it.
And those rules may or may not be part of the the way a particular game is set up. I mean, if a game is not about morality or moral decisions, throwing in some moral decisions because 'the rules say so' isn't going to freaking help. The people who want the weight of RPed actions in their game will have them. And it'll probably work out fine. HOWEVER, the paladin code section suggests, nay demands these RPed actions to have weight. So, you get a DM whos idea of a fun session is a dungeon with a logic puzzle trying to play out morally ambiguous situations that they're not ready for. That game probably isn't ready for it, since just droping something new (but reasonable) into a game is a recipie for disaster since NO ONE WILL KNOW HOW TO HANDLE IT! So in quite a few games, it seems like an arbitrary and cruel punishment.
Or, to put it another way, I like chocolate. I also like beef stew. However, when I'm making stew, don't add in chocolate sauce because the tastes don't go together.
The paladin code and ability loss isn't necessarry in every game. But it looks like it is.
And those rules may or may not be part of the the way a particular game is set up. I mean, if a game is not about morality or moral decisions, throwing in some moral decisions because 'the rules say so' isn't going to freaking help. The people who want the weight of RPed actions in their game will have them. And it'll probably work out fine. HOWEVER, the paladin code section suggests, nay demands these RPed actions to have weight. So, you get a DM whos idea of a fun session is a dungeon with a logic puzzle trying to play out morally ambiguous situations that they're not ready for. That game probably isn't ready for it, since just droping something new (but reasonable) into a game is a recipie for disaster since NO ONE WILL KNOW HOW TO HANDLE IT! So in quite a few games, it seems like an arbitrary and cruel punishment.
Or, to put it another way, I like chocolate. I also like beef stew. However, when I'm making stew, don't add in chocolate sauce because the tastes don't go together.
The paladin code and ability loss isn't necessarry in every game. But it looks like it is.
Double Post Eliminated, then replaced with:
Actually, the Paladin as written is steeped in Western religious concepts and preconceptions, but there is no reason why you can't modify bushido, as you point out, to make an Asian-themed Paladin.
There was an excellent article MANY years ago in Dragon magazine that pointed out that, were you to use the Crusades as a backdrop for your campaign, you'd find Paladins on both sides of the conflict, possibly fighting each other and calling each other NASTY names...
Actually, the Paladin as written is steeped in Western religious concepts and preconceptions, but there is no reason why you can't modify bushido, as you point out, to make an Asian-themed Paladin.
There was an excellent article MANY years ago in Dragon magazine that pointed out that, were you to use the Crusades as a backdrop for your campaign, you'd find Paladins on both sides of the conflict, possibly fighting each other and calling each other NASTY names...
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Forceuser...I have more humility coming out of my butt than your friend! 
ForceUser
Explorer
lol, yeahdavidschwartznz said:
This is one reason why I abandoned the alignment system in my own campaign. Paladins must still adhere to high standards, of course--the same as every other divinely-inspired character.
See, now, we're joking--but he wasn't!Dannyalcatraz said:Forceuser...I have more humility coming out of my butt than your friend!
Aikuchi
Transient
Intrigued:
Was reading thoughtbubbles post and it occurs to me that if no real moral challenge is presented by action, inaction, intended or otherwise in a simple clean good vs evil all around fun hack game ... the Paladin suffers little to no penalty or drawbacks.
Well thats an extreme case.
But if there are little to no moral challenges in a game the Paladin class certainly looks more promising.
Was reading thoughtbubbles post and it occurs to me that if no real moral challenge is presented by action, inaction, intended or otherwise in a simple clean good vs evil all around fun hack game ... the Paladin suffers little to no penalty or drawbacks.
Well thats an extreme case.
But if there are little to no moral challenges in a game the Paladin class certainly looks more promising.
Wow, walk away for a few hours, and the thread explodes. Guess it's more evidence of the nature of paladins.
I'll concur with you on this, Torm. I've been playing for 23 years, since I was 17. Twice, in my younger days, I tried (and failed) to play paladins well. They came across as pompous and holier-than-thou. It frustrated me, because I enjoyed (and figured I did well at) playing a number of other classes.
I just started playing a paladin in Living Greyhawk last year. I think a level of maturity probably helps. The other thing that seems to help me is really knowing the dogma of my PC's god (Heironeous), and trying to hew to that very closely.
Torm said:
I'll concur with you on this, Torm. I've been playing for 23 years, since I was 17. Twice, in my younger days, I tried (and failed) to play paladins well. They came across as pompous and holier-than-thou. It frustrated me, because I enjoyed (and figured I did well at) playing a number of other classes.
I just started playing a paladin in Living Greyhawk last year. I think a level of maturity probably helps. The other thing that seems to help me is really knowing the dogma of my PC's god (Heironeous), and trying to hew to that very closely.
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