Pathfinder 1E What is it about PF making characters useless?

[Chuck Ocenasek]

Small bit of gaming history about me. I played 2e back in HS and went to a college and grad school where gaming was not existent so I missed the heyday of 3.0/3.5 I jumped into 4e and then 5e. PFS is really big in my area so I play that because quite frankly RPGing I don't like us better than no RPG at all.

What I have noticed is in this edition it is totally possiblevfor a character due to the rules and high DCs to do nothing.

Eamplev1. Playing pregen at a con. Got grappled by a ROC, my character only had a 2 handed weapon on the sheet so I could not attack it. Tried to break the grapple, rolled a 20. Even with my raging modifiers it was not enough to break the grapple. I died.

Example 2: Playing in a PFS mod with a character made using only the core book. Could not communicate with NPCs because my character could not speak any of the languages listed that were not in the Core Book. Secondly I could make no check because all the skills required I did not have. I guess I am use to 5e where you can at least attempt a check and the DCs rewired are somewhat obtainable untrained.

I get that people like thus system and perhaps it requires a bit of mastery than I am willing to put in, but I wanted to share my story.

Happy gaming.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Pathfinder is an off-shoot of third edition, which is half-way between first edition and fifth edition, and it shows. If you recall your AD&D days, there were quite a lot of monsters and traps against which most characters were useless. A ghoul could touch you, and your paralysis would be measured in ten-minute turns. A rot grub could touch you, and you just die, end of story. Pathfinder didn't invent the concept of making a character useless, but it was strongly-involved in toning those things down to a reasonable level.

The thing to remember about 3E, and Pathfinder by extension, is that everything is quantified... but the numbers start to get polarized as you get to high levels. Remember, this is the first time they've tried this statistical approach where so many factors can be included, so they hadn't quite worked out the math yet. When you get to very high levels, a character is nearly-indomitable at whatever they're built for and nearly-worthless outside of that. Saving throw DCs quickly outpace saving throw bonuses, unless you specifically build for it. Armor Class is practically worthless, unless that's your gimmick. You have to know a lot about the system mechanics in order to understand how to build a character that works.

That still doesn't excuse them giving you a pre-gen character who didn't have a dagger.

 

[Arilyn]

I have played a lot of PF. Our group are not min/maxers and we don't feel the need to have "builds." We do not spend hours pouring over books in order to make workable characters. We make the characters we want, and no one feels they need system mastery to succeed. There are some play problems at high level, because the monsters get wonky and there is a lot for everyone to keep track of. I personally hate the super long monster descriptions. I like PF, because of all the choices. I never have trouble creating the character I want to play.

There is a conception that PF is overly complex, but that is not actually true. It is overly fiddly, as it is an older system and could use some streamlining. We introduced the game to our daughters when they were in their early to mid-teens, and they had no problems learning the rules and playing it well.

I am sorry you had some frustrations with game, but it sounds like it was more GM fault than the game.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Did ya try biting the Roc?
[video=youtube;SUwPHTI47Lg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUwPHTI47Lg&sns=em[/video]

 

[Derren]

1. The only problem I see here is that the pregen had no backup weapon against grappling. But K see no problem that without preparation you are helpless in some situations.

2. Thats more of a GM fault. When he runs an adventure in a foreign country he should inform the players beforhand so that they can build their characters for this.

 

[billd91]

1. The only problem I see here is that the pregen had no backup weapon against grappling. But K see no problem that without preparation you are helpless in some situations.

That's definitely a problem with the pregen - which means, pretty much, the GM. If they gave you a pregen with no flexibility, they set up the character poorly.

2. Thats more of a GM fault. When he runs an adventure in a foreign country he should inform the players beforhand so that they can build their characters for this.

Since this was described as PFS, that is sometimes the result of a weird muster. For any readers not familiar, Pathfinder Society games allow players to bring their own PCs and scratch parties are formed when the session musters. If nobody brings a PC who understands those languages, the table is going to face some extra challenges. An individual PC might not be well-suited to the specific scenario as well, though usually that's pretty rare.

 

[Tony Vargas]

What I have noticed is in this edition it is totally possiblevfor a character due to the rules and high DCs to do nothing.

Sure. It's not only possible, it's likely as you get to higher levels. With skills, for instance, there are a lot more skills than anyone can get skill points. You're never going to keep up, you keep getting relatively worse and worse at anything you don't put a rank to every level.

4e didn't do that, 'training' is always a +5 relative to others of your level. 5e limits the effect: proficiency is a +2, rising to +6 as you level towards 20. The former can be seen as a 'treadmill' where you don't really get better (that is, challenges get steadily harder as you get better), the latter can be seen as not getting much (net +4 over 20 levels) better.

I get that people like thus system and perhaps it requires a bit of mastery than I am willing to put in, but I wanted to share my story.

'Mastery' won't prevent there from being DCs you build can't touch, but it can make sure you're extremely good at the things you want to be good at - it's up to you to then /avoid/ the DCs you still can't touch, in play.

 

[Shasarak]

Example 2: Playing in a PFS mod with a character made using only the core book. Could not communicate with NPCs because my character could not speak any of the languages listed that were not in the Core Book. Secondly I could make no check because all the skills required I did not have. I guess I am use to 5e where you can at least attempt a check and the DCs rewired are somewhat obtainable untrained.

Did your character try speaking slowly and loudly? That usually seems to work.

If it does not work just speak slower and louder.

 

[Taavon Farwise]

Apparently, your DMs never learned the simple rule that I ALWAYS run my games by; if it's NOT fun, why are we doing it? That includes, of course, the DM. I simply cannot stand games where no matter what you do, you're PROBABLY doomed to die. I love combat & making it close & life-threatening at times but rarely have I killed a PC. It can and does happen, especially when they make dumb or foolish choices but I can't stand it when the DM has to ''prove'' how tough their world or style is by snuffing PCs and their players. I've been in games like that & frankly, it sucks. Hopefully, you'll find a DM/GM who's a little more tolerant.

 

[Taavon Farwise]

Agreed! I can understand wanting to get players to improvise, but that can make a game a LOT more challenging and frustrating as well. Nothing sucks more than thinking that nothing you do or say is going to make much of a difference in the game. I'd at least provide an NPC ''local'' or interpreter for the party who can (truthfully?) translate for them, perhaps for a price...