Pathfinder 1E What is Pathfinder doing about multi-classing?

[Chacal]

After giving it a few more thoughts, I tend to believe that the merge+ECL system might be balanced for evenly multiclassed characters. The increase in ECL, while "unfun" for the players, is definitely needed. I'm not fond of the ECL system because I believe that balancing powers with levels is fundamentally dangerous to the balance. But since your merged class is better at everything at each level, it might work.

I still want to address the other multiclass combinations, though.


By the way, I've started this. Feel free to add your own rules.

http://www.enworld.org/wiki/index.php/Multiclassing_Mechanisms

Chacal



Chacal

 

[Kerrick]

It's quite close indeed.
I'll highlight some differences:
+ you use (almost) no divisions
- you use more caps and ifs

Division is bad. It's hard to do for most folks, and leads to more errors. The caps arose from testing - I realized that without them, you'd end up with something like

Clr 10/Wiz 15/Drd 5 (this was the first combo I used, totally picked at random)

which, under the UA rules, would end being

Clr 25/Wiz 30/Drd 20 (just effective caster levels, but still...).

I'm still torn on this issue, but I believe the DCs are already lower than those of a single classed caster, because of the spell progression and the division of resources between the multiple spellcasting stats. I want the casters to have a significant chance to bypass SR.

Keeping multiclass casters viable is good, yeah, but we don't want them to overpower single-class casters or everyone will just go multiclass.

BCL: Base Caster Level
Full Spellcasting class: 1/ class level
Half Spellcasting class: 3/4 class level
Non Spellcasting class: 1/2 class level

Yeah, I was thinking something similar. 1/4 level is too brutal, but 1/2 might be too much. Maybe 1, 2/3, 1/3?

Additionally, each full spellcasting class after the first impose a -1 malus to the BCL.

I like that. I couldn't figure out a way to prevent someone from taking levels in umpteen spellcasting classes, but that's a good, simple solution.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I agree. You have to choose between one of two problems: not letting a character multiclass late in his career, or dealing with, "Damn, Bob, you learned a lot in that last fight, huh?" (And yes, this totally eliminates "dipping," the good points of which are often overlooked.)

I wonder if "dipping" shouldn't have an entirely different solution.

Maybe instead of fixing equal level multiclassing with feats, replace dipping with class feats. So you could pick up a feat to get some Sneak Attack Damage, or some extra class skills.

Of course, On these lines of thought might lie madness 4E.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I wonder if "dipping" shouldn't have an entirely different solution.

Maybe instead of fixing equal level multiclassing with feats, replace dipping with class feats. So you could pick up a feat to get some Sneak Attack Damage, or some extra class skills.

Of course, On these lines of thought might lie madness 4E.

I think that's perfectly reasonable. For people who'd reject it because something similar is used in 4E, just remember that something similar was used in Mutants & Masterminds much earlier than 4E.

 

[BryonD]

Of course, On these lines of thought might lie madness 4E.

Just for reference, I don't think many people dislike that 4E has feats to offer bits of multiclassing. I think the people who dislike the 4E system dislike that it offers nothing MORE than that.

Some good cross class styled feats could be very welcome in 3E. But I want that to supplement multi-classing. Not replace it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

ust remember that something similar was used in Mutants & Masterminds much earlier than 4E.

I didn't know that! Maybe I should pick up a copy, just so see what the fuss is all about.

 

[Voadam]

For martial classes multiclassing pretty much works across the board (if you use fractional BAB and saves). Dipping, even splits, more than two classes, late multiclassing, etc. Pretty much any number of levels of rogue mixes well with any number of levels of fighter and so on with characters being comparable in battle power to straight classed equal level combat characters.

Prestige classes, special feats, ECL mechanics are not necessary.

Dipping into a spellcasting class is generally OK. A fighter 19/wizard 1 can use a bunch of utility or buff spell wands. A Barbarian 19/druid 1 can use a bunch of healing items or scrolls and still take names in martial combat.

The problem is when spell power is a significant character focus and not just a few supplemental tricks. Losing high level spell slots, spells, and caster levels puts you significantly far behind the power curve of comparable characters. Having the spell power of a gestalt 10/10 wizard/cleric is not comparable to the power of a level 20 caster when taking on a CR 20 foe.

If there was a universal spell slot template for casters I'd say give caster level and spell slots based on character levels and spells known (including level of spells known) based on class levels. I'd have no problem with a fighter 19/wizard 1 having tons of magic missiles and possibly even tons of metamagicked magic missiles. Same for a rogue 19/cleric 1 with cure lights.

Unfortunately there are four different charts for the four full core casters before you even get into the semicasters or noncore casters or prestige class casters.

 

[RangerWickett]

Well then why not fix the problem by creating a unified caster level progression chart?

We come up with one chart, probably based on the wizard chart of spells per day. The starting point is that a cleric 10/wizard 10 is a 20th level caster, and so gets the same spells per day a 20th level wizard would get. However, his levels in each class determine how he fills those spell slots.

Hm, okay, so how to do this?

Let me first suggest the radical solution. The radical solution is that we require all casters to have a list of spells known. You can only cast spells from that list with your daily spell slots, but you can cast other spells on the list as a ritual.

You start at 1st level with X cantrips known and 4 1st level spells, and you gain an extra 2 spells known per level thereafter. The spells you choose must be from the class you take at that level. So if you're a cleric 10 and then take a level of wizard, your caster level is 11 for both wizard and cleric spells, but you can only choose wizard spells this level. However, those spells can be up to 6th level spells.

A smart multiclasser would go back and forth, so he gets 2 spells of each level in each class.

Now the complication comes in dealing with a) the spell lists aren't equal, and b) the classes get benefits beyond just their spells.

Let me think about how to do this and get back to you. But I'm confident this is the way to go.

 

[RangerWickett]

Okay, so we want to use a unified caster level progression, but have enough distinctions within each class that it affects how you cast spells. Everyone knows two spells per level in a casting class, and they can spend 10 minutes performing a ritual to cast another spell from their list, at the cost of expending a slot of the appropriate level.

Sorcerers, for instance, wouldn't get the 'Ritual Casting' ability, but as they advanced they could maybe get bonus spell slots, which could only be used for sorcerer spells.

Wizards, by contrast, could pull off ritual casting the fastest. He just needs a spell-book and the necessary power components, and he can cast a spell out of his book in two rounds (as a rough example; playtesting could change this). Normal ritual casting takes 10 minutes. In addition, the wizard has spells known that he can cast at will (just like the 3.5 sorcerer can), but he also has the option to prepare spells out of a spell-book.

Clerics get bonus spell slots which they can only use for their domain spells.

Druids don't get any special rules for casting. Bards need to have their spell list switched to the 0-9 spell levels everyone uses, and they get only 1 spell per level.

Classes without spellcasting . . . hm.

I realize the problem is that if you're a Ftr 19/Wiz 1, sure, you only know 2 spells, but you've got all the spell slots of a 20th level caster. Now, if you pick 2 9th level spells, you can only cast, like, 4 or 5 of those. But if you pick, say, magic missile and fireball, you've got a ridiculous amount of evocation power. If you'd grabbed maximize spell, you can still be fairly impressive.

So here's the easy solution. Normal classes just provide 1/2 normal caster level progression, and you obviously don't get any spells known when you take a level in a non-casting class. So the Ftr 19/Wiz 1 has a caster level of 10. Yes, he can know any two spells of levels 0 through 5, and yes, he can cast them a lot. But that's really not overpowering at 20th level, is it?

I still need to figure out how to keep Ftr 19/Wiz 1 from abusing rituals, and how to handle half-caster classes, but I think this is a start. What do you think?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I guess I should probably post my unified spell progression, multiclass caster fix to my blog.

It needs work, but it's pretty far along.