What is Powerful Build worth?

[Pyrex]

As far as ECL goes, if Large is worth +1LA, I'd rate Powerful Build as worth +1 Monstrous Humanoid HD.

 

[Deset Gled]

I've been thinking about that one as well. What would be the effect of making dwarves Small sized but with Powerful Build?

For starters, AC would increase by 1. They would also be able to ride smaller mounts. The most dangerous part of it that I see is that they are treated one size larger "if doing so is advantageous," which basically means they will be getting the best of both worlds. There are occasional situations, such as grappling with multiple characters, that this could be beneficial. Dwarves are already overpowered, IMO, they don't need any more help.

To the OP, I would say PB is probably worth a +1 LA in most situations. As to getting PB instead of going up a size, it means you're trading improved reach for the option to act as a smaller size when needed. Seems like a fair trade off to me.

you all insierd me to make this race. what do you think?

That's an LA+1 due to the stat adjustments alone.

 

[Arkhandus]

Why's that, Pyrex? Powerful Build gives all the advantages of Large size except reach, but has none of the drawbacks (which would normally balance out the reach and a bit more).

 

[Pyrex]

Powerful Build grants:
+WeaponSize
+CombatManeuverSizeMod

Size increase from Med->Large grants:
+8 Str, +4 Con
+2 Natural Armor
+Reach
+Weapon Size
+CombatManeuverSizeMod

With the drawbacks of
-2 Dex
-1 ATK
-1 AC

The remainder of the benefits of Large (vs Powerful Build) are *huge* (pun not intended), and the drawbacks are really pretty minimal.

IMO, a size upgrade from Med->Large is noticeably more powerful than just adding Powerful Build to a medium creature; ergo it costs more in ECL calculations.

If you assume that Med->Large is worth +1 LA*, then the most convenient cost-step down from there is +1 HD.

*IMO Med->Large is worth more than that though. As far as upgrading/building custom races goes I'd probably rate Large as +1HD/+LA and rate Medium+PowerfulBuild as either +2HD or +1LA depending on other racial features.

 

[Arkhandus]

I wasn't sure if you meant including the ability modifiers and natural armor, but yeah, that's definitely worth more than just the basic size-mod stuff.

I consider Large size with full bennies (Str mods an' all) to be worth more than +1 LA, definitely. More like +2 or +3 LA. I generally consider something around +6 Strength to be +1 LA by itself. So getting the full effects of Large size would be like a strong LA +2 or weak LA +3.

 

[borble]

That's an LA+1 due to the stat adjustments alone.

its +2+2+2 -2-2-2
thats even

 

[GreatLemur]

its +2+2+2 -2-2-2
thats even

A net +0 to ability scores isn't the same thing, balance-wise, as a lack of ability score adjustments. By giving your race bonuses to all the physical abilities and penalties to all the mental abilities, you've just created an option that's very powerful as long the character doesn't have a serious need for Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma. And, seriously, that ain't hard.

 

[Arkhandus]

Aye. All ability scores are not created equal in D&D. Str is roughly equal to Dex, Con is roughly equal to Int, and Wis is a bit better than Cha. Order of general ability score value, really, would be Dex, Str, Con, Int, Wis, then Cha. Arguably, though, Wis might be equal or superior to Int, simply because of the various classes that use Wis for their abilities.

Also, being Tiny with all the advantages of Medium and all the advantages of Tiny size is just too significant. +2 attack, +2 AC, +8 Hide, Medium weapons, no size penalties on grapple checks and such, etc. And then physical ability score boosts on top of that.

As an aside: A race that is Tiny size but counts as Medium for any beneficial purposes is a non sequitor, and makes my brain hurt. It's nonsense.

 

[borble]

if your in a normal magic relm there are will death saves that are hard to make. i think its not that good but if need be i can remove con.
ben

 

[borble]

Aye. All ability scores are not created equal in D&D. Str is roughly equal to Dex, Con is roughly equal to Int, and Wis is a bit better than Cha. Order of general ability score value, really, would be Dex, Str, Con, Int, Wis, then Cha. Arguably, though, Wis might be equal or superior to Int, simply because of the various classes that use Wis for their abilities.

Also, being Tiny with all the advantages of Medium and all the advantages of Tiny size is just too significant. +2 attack, +2 AC, +8 Hide, Medium weapons, no size penalties on grapple checks and such, etc. And then physical ability score boosts on top of that.

As an aside: A race that is Tiny size but counts as Medium for any beneficial purposes is a non sequitor, and makes my brain hurt. It's nonsense.

EDITED some stuff
see the problem is that i don’t know/ memorized all the bonuses and negatives I gave them. if you would so kindly list them id be glad to edit and make this more balanced.
what is the +2 to attack from?
thanks
ben