What is Powerful Build worth?

[Pyrex]

Not to mention that for your Shrimp race they effectively have a +14 Racial bonus to STR offset by a -12 Size penalty. A tiny race with +2 STR is just rediculous.

Given that, a similar Racial bonus to Con, a 30' move and the fact that they've got Powerful Build *twice* they absolutely are not LA+0.

They're at least 1HD+1LA. Or just +2 LA if you prefer.

 

[Arkhandus]

....huh?

Anyway, they don't make sense being Tiny size but with Medium-size advantages. And your size modifiers are mixed up. Tiny size gives +2 on attack and AC, +8 on Hide checks, and normally would incur -8 on grapple checks and whatnot.

Strength and Constitution bonuses make little sense for a Tiny-sized race. Normally a Tiny race would suffer big penalties to those ability scores. And penalties to Int, Wis, and Cha will never balance out bonuses to Str, Dex, and Con.

Edit: Forgot to say, also, this thread is not really the proper place to discuss the race. This is a thread on Powerful Build.

 

[borble]

....huh?

Anyway, they don't make sense being Tiny size but with Medium-size advantages. And your size modifiers are mixed up. Tiny size gives +2 on attack and AC, +8 on Hide checks, and normally would incur -8 on grapple checks and whatnot.

Strength and Constitution bonuses make little sense for a Tiny-sized race. Normally a Tiny race would suffer big penalties to those ability scores. And penalties to Int, Wis, and Cha will never balance out bonuses to Str, Dex, and Con.

Edit: Forgot to say, also, this thread is not really the proper place to discuss the race. This is a thread on Powerful Build.

edited the corectings you made
ben

 

[Eloi]

I would be hard-pressed to allow any race that had Powerful Build *twice*. Seems likely that the entire race would have been hunted to extinction by wolves, with their propensity to trip first and hunt down delicious survivors later.

Powerful Build is good enough to solidify the decision for boosting a race fully to that next LA step. If there was some emerging race of Spartan-Orcs with an additional +2 to Strength, another nifty Feat and Powerful Build, they'd be worth the full +1 LA, even without added Reach.

IMHO, Powerful Build is a nice Racial-Only feat. It won't aid your Fort save or improve your hit points like the Constitution you would have gained from a true Med-> Large upgrade, and it makes you a more obvious first-to-eliminate (seeing as how you conveniently happen to be bigger, you target you).

If you're tired of playing a Dwarf, this isn't bad.

 

[starwed]

Size increase from Med->Large grants:
+8 Str, +4 Con
+2 Natural Armor
+Reach
+Weapon Size
+CombatManeuverSizeMod

This is just not true of the first two items; these are the statistics for advancing a monster when it increases in size. Note that when you cast enlarge person on a human, they get the latter three because they're an intrinsic part of being large, but not the first two.

 

[paradox42]

Starwed is correct. When speaking of whether Large is worth any sort of LA in races, one must take into account the fact that just plain being Large carries no inherent change to ability scores or natural armor. If you want to add the ability score changes and natural armor increase that are used when advancing monsters, well that's your choice, but those aren't inherently a part of being the larger size.

The big thing that WotC considers valuable with the larger size, and the reason they've refused to publish any genuinely Large-sized PC races, is the Reach. Powerful Build is really just the size without the Reach, and without the size penalties. IMO, Powerful Build is a rather lame cop-out, and in my own games I always chuck it out the window for any race that has it and just make the race size Large. I've never had problems in-game, doing this, since races with Powerful Build have LAs anyway. As a DM I can make the penalties to Hide, AC and basic to-hit worth the Reach with little trouble (hint: use frequent ranged attacks, and particularly ranged touch attacks).

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Regarding Dwarven characters, I have a HR that changes them somewhat. They lose thier bonus against Giants and gain 'Stocky Build'

The physical stature of Dwarves let them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. A Dwarf can us weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. Generally speaking, the dwarf will benefit from: a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks. The benefits of this racial trait stack with powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

starwed, Do you have a quote to back up not gaining the physical stat adjustments and Nat Armor from increasing size in play?

 

[strahd99]

This is a throwback to a similar thread I posted on wizards site....I think that the +1 LA for the Half-giant should be a +2. Due to thier bonuses. Then we got into the whole how much should powerful build be worth arguement. I run powerful build as +1 LA. It works for us with a homebrew race we use.

 

[JohnSnow]

I've been thinking about that one as well. What would be the effect of making dwarves Small sized but with Powerful Build?

For starters, AC would increase by 1. They would also be able to ride smaller mounts. The most dangerous part of it that I see is that they are treated one size larger "if doing so is advantageous," which basically means they will be getting the best of both worlds. There are occasional situations, such as grappling with multiple characters, that this could be beneficial. Dwarves are already overpowered, IMO, they don't need any more help.

So, as small creatures with mighty build, dwarves would end up having the following stats:

• 20-foot rate of movement
• treated as medium creatures for grappling purposes
• treated as medium creatures for purposes of encumbrance and load
• the ability to use medium weapons without penalty
• +1 size benefit to AC
• +1 size benefit to attacks
• +4 size benefit to hide checks

As small creatures, their movement rate is 20 feet (as now). They'd be able to wield medium weapons with penalty (as they do now). They'd be treated as medium for purposes of bull rushes, grapples, and load (as they are now). So essentially, the only benefit they get out of it is to replace their racial bonus to attacks against orcs and goblins with a simple static bonus based on them being small.

So it makes sense to me. Quite honestly, with a little tweaking, you might be able to make dwarves MORE balanced. They could, of course, also be shorter (3'6" or thereabouts) rather than arbitrarily shoved to a 4' minimum by their size category. For instance, make them size small with powerful build, give them a DEX penalty to offset their CON bonus (AC penalty offset by size bonus), and a higher benefit to the appropriate craft checks (+4 rather than +2). You'd have to make your own call on their ability to move in Medium or Heavy armor without penalty or their extra benefit against being bull-rushed tripped. Personally, I think you could leave those abilities in place.

You could leave everything else intact. And you'd have dwarves that made sense. They'd be less likely to use missile weapons due to their dex penalty. But their small size would prevent it from hurting them too much in combat against most of their traditional foes. Except against goblins, which might explain why dwarves loathe them.

It also is more in keeping with the fantasy traditions for dwarves to be small.

My two cents.

 

[Nyaricus]

So, as small creatures with mighty build, dwarves would end up having the following stats:

• 20-foot rate of movement
• treated as medium creatures for grappling purposes
• treated as medium creatures for purposes of encumbrance and load
• the ability to use medium weapons without penalty
• +1 size benefit to AC
• +1 size benefit to attacks
• +4 size benefit to hide checks

As small creatures, their movement rate is 20 feet (as now). They'd be able to wield medium weapons with penalty (as they do now). They'd be treated as medium for purposes of bull rushes, grapples, and load (as they are now). So essentially, the only benefit they get out of it is to replace their racial bonus to attacks against orcs and goblins with a simple static bonus based on them being small.

So it makes sense to me. Quite honestly, with a little tweaking, you might be able to make dwarves MORE balanced. They could, of course, also be shorter (3'6" or thereabouts) rather than arbitrarily shoved to a 4' minimum by their size category. For instance, make them size small with powerful build, give them a DEX penalty to offset their CON bonus (AC penalty offset by size bonus), and a higher benefit to the appropriate craft checks (+4 rather than +2). You'd have to make your own call on their ability to move in Medium or Heavy armor without penalty or their extra benefit against being bull-rushed tripped. Personally, I think you could leave those abilities in place.

You could leave everything else intact. And you'd have dwarves that made sense. They'd be less likely to use missile weapons due to their dex penalty. But their small size would prevent it from hurting them too much in combat against most of their traditional foes. Except against goblins, which might explain why dwarves loathe them.

It also is more in keeping with the fantasy traditions for dwarves to be small.

My two cents.

You know, readng this thread, I was thinking that having my Tolkienesque dwarves for my homebrew changed to Small with a "Stocky Build" ability might be the way to go rather than having them medium size. After-all, while Gimli in Lotr (the movie) was as broad as a stocky man, he was only a wee bit taller than the Hobbits. Just really short legs, but a muscular, stocky, man-sized trunk for his body.

Since my dwarves are already house-ruled like crazy, I think this will work wonderfully in my CS.

cheers,
--N