What is precision-based damage?

[Bagpuss]

This came up in the Manyshot thread but I thought it should have its own thread.

In the Manyshot feat the following is mentioned.

Special: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical
hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.

The only other occasion from a search through the SRD that precision is mentioned in regards to damage is regards Blindness due to darkness.

Creatures blinded by darkness lose the ability to deal extra damage due to precision (for example, a ranger’s favored
enemy or a sneak attack).

Note in the discriptions of Sneak Attack and Favored Enemy damage it makes no mention of the additional damage being 'precision-based damage' although for sneak attack it does mention picking a vital spot.

So what is precision-based damage... Sneak Attack and Favored Enemy are the only ones that have a rule even hinting that they are precision-based.

But want about Point Blank Shot, Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, anything that adds to damage?

 

[Hypersmurf]

But want about Point Blank Shot, Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, anything that adds to damage?

Point Blank Shot is precision damage.

Weapon Specialization was precision damage in 3e, but is no longer in 3.5.

Power Attack is not.

It's the 30 foot limit that defines it.

-Hyp.

 

[Bagpuss]

Re: Re: What is precision-based damage?

Point Blank Shot is precision damage.

Weapon Specialization was precision damage in 3e, but is no longer in 3.5.

Power Attack is not.

It's the 30 foot limit that defines it.

-Hyp.

Care to quote a source for that? After all Favored Enemy damage is NOT limited to 30ft for ranged weapons anymore according to the SRD, and yet in the example above it is claimed to be precision damage.

Also nothing in Point Blank Shot's description mentions anything about precision, aiming or vital areas.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: What is precision-based damage?

Care to quote a source for that? After all Favored Enemy damage is NOT limited to 30ft for ranged weapons anymore according to the SRD, and yet in the example above it is claimed to be precision damage.

Also nothing in Point Blank Shot's description mentions anything about precision, aiming or vital areas.

Given that the Main FAQ is based on 3.0, I'll give 3.0 answers for now...

From the Main FAQ:

Can a rogue sneak attack with three shuriken if she is
within 30 feet of a target? If each hits, does each gain the
sneak attack bonus?
You apply sneak attack damage only once per attack. If you
use one attack to throw three shuriken, you get to apply sneak
attack bonus damage only once. Sneak attack damage—and a
ranger’s favored enemy bonus damage—apply only to one of
the three shuriken that you throw. You do not have enough
precision with the extra shuriken to get bonus sneak attack or
favored enemy damage.

The description of the shuriken in the Player’s Handbook
says you can’t apply your Strength bonus on shuriken
damage. Can you use the +2 damage bonus from
specialization if you’re specialized with shuriken?
Yes, you can apply the damage bonus for specialization in
shuriken, but only if the target is within 30 feet. Only the first
shuriken you throw in an attack gets the bonus damage. As
noted before, only one shuriken thrown in an attack has any
real degree on precision; the other one or two are just along for
the ride.

The only common factor between the three in 3.0 is the 30 foot limit - Specialization is not limited to creatures subject to criticals.

If they've changed it in 3.5, then they'll need to define it somewhere. Maybe in a new FAQ

-Hyp.

 

[Bagpuss]

Yeah looks like they dropped the ball on this one the phrase 'precision-based damage' sounds very much like it was cooked up to sort out the sort of problem 3.0 had with shuriken and weapons that had more than one damage effect, per attack roll, but then they forgot to define what was precision based damage anywhere except in that weird little example about being blinded by darkness.

Again its weird that it only applies to being blinded by darkness, if someone pokes you in both eyes with a fork, or cast Blindness or Color Spray on you, you can still sneak attack him according to those rules!

 

[Camarath]

Yeah looks like they dropped the ball on this one the phrase 'precision-based damage' sounds very much like it was cooked up to sort out the sort of problem 3.0 had with shuriken and weapons that had more than one damage effect, per attack roll, but then they forgot to define what was precision based damage anywhere except in that weird little example about being blinded by darkness.

I agree that they dropped the ball here. This issue was know well before 3.5 and AFAICS they did nothing to address it in the core rules. How and why could they forget to define precision based damage wile making some ablilities that had done precision damage in 3.0 not do so in 3.5? This seems negligent to me.

 

[Caliban]

Precision based damage comes from any attack that requires special knowledge about the target so that you can strike a more vulnerable area (thus causing the damage).

If the attack doesn't require any special targeting or knowledge of the target, then it's not precision based.

Sneak attack requires you to target vulnerable parts of your opponents anatomy to do the damage. If you can't see your target well enough to target them (concealment) or if your target doesn't have any particularly vulnerable bits (construct, undead, plant, ooze) then it doesn't work.

Ranger favored enemy damage relies on special knowledge of your targets anatomy/habits (and now works even against undead, constructs, oozes, and plants - apparently rangers know something rogues don't). If you can't see your target clearly, then you can't aim for where it hurts the most.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Precision based damage comes from any attack that requires special knowledge about the target so that you can strike a more vulnerable area (thus causing the damage).

The FAQ defines 3.0 WS damage as precision damage, though, and WS doesn't require any knowledge of your target, nor is it affected by concealment. The only condition on 3.0 WS was the 30 foot limit.

Weapon Specialization [Special]
Choose one type of weapon. The character is especially good at inflicting damage with this weapon.

"Good at inflicting damage". No knowledge of target required.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

The FAQ defines 3.0 WS damage as precision damage, though, and WS doesn't require any knowledge of your target, nor is it affected by concealment. The only condition on 3.0 WS was the 30 foot limit.

Weapon Specialization [Special]
Choose one type of weapon. The character is especially good at inflicting damage with this weapon.

"Good at inflicting damage". No knowledge of target required.

-Hyp.

Perhaps that's why it's no longer classified as precision damage in 3.5...

 

[Bagpuss]

Perhaps that's why it's no longer classified as precision damage in 3.5...

Problem is there is nothing in the 3.5 rules to say if it is or it isn't precision damage. Personally I think it is as adding up to five lots of +4 (Greater Weapon Specialization) to four damage rolls for a standard action, is as rule breaking, as say adding +1 for Point Blank Shot. But Hypersmurf disagrees, and we could both use the rules (or lack of them) to back up our arguement.

Point Blank Shot doesn't say if it is precision damage either, the extra damage could just come from the character knowing how to take best advantage of the extra force from close range shots.

In the end its down to DM fiat and we know how much players love that.