What is Ptolus anyway?

[Mistwell]

No, it's still taking what is calculated to be the worst possible scenario and then parading it around as "proof" that the book is overpriced.

It's taking the actual senario, not the worst possible senario. Freebies given for preordering a book are not the product itself. That's why they are called freebies. It's the view Monte seems to take on it, and everyone except you on his board. Maybe you should check the thread in question again - nobody agreed with you that the Freebies should count as the product itself.

Yes, the hard copy NoD is no longer available, after a year to order it, either in a single payment or in installments.

Most people did not pre-order it. Ask Monte if you don't buy that. People don't tend to buy what they have never seen or read a review of. Most products, including this one, will sell after their release, not before.

More people managed to do that than are able to own Rappan Athuk Reloaded (since we know how many preorders Monte signed and how many copies of RAR were printed). Since your proof comes from a thread started back when preorders were still available, it comes from people who were consciously trying to skew the numbers as badly as possible, and is very germaine.

The thread may have been started earlier, but the point about price was not. Again, why don't you check it again before making these accusations about what happened. I was not trying to skew anything about it, it was in fact after the freebies were being offerred, and by the way it was ME doing those calculations and you just saw them again in this thread.

Yeeeah, after GenCon, it's over. The book will be gone. Unless someone preordered, is going to GenCon or are one of the handful of people buying it off eBay (and those sellers actually honor those sales), they're not getting the hard copy anyway.

What are you talking about? Seriously, I really don't think you have your facts correct. The book is being mass shipped to game stores. It's getting a pretty big distribution. MOST of the books well sell AFTER gen con. The book is not going to be "gone", it hasn't even BEGUN to sell! You seem to think that, unless you personally know about Monte Cooks website and go there and bought it, or are going to GenCon, then you cannot get this product. I'm betting Monte would verbally twack you over the head for saying that! MOST of it is being released in game stores soon, and that is what this thread is actually talking about - people who will go to their game stores and want to decide if they should buy it or not.

Nice, so while acknowleding that they do add to the page count -- by several hundred pages -- they no longer count.

Freebies which you no longer can get do in fact no longer count. Yes. What is so wrong about that? And the CD does count...it just doesn't make up for the price increase. Do the math yourself if you don't believe it, rather than making assumptions. Add up the actual current price to buy each CD item from Monte separately.

And, as someone who has the damn book in my possession, let me assure you that running it without owning Chaositech is like running a marathon without a foot.

Well, my group has no intention of using Chaositech, and I have not seen great discussion of Chaositech being used on Monte's board. But again...if you really want it, just spend $6 to get it.

Again, since you're bashing the book without, you know, owning it, the printing process is worth the markup.

This is my biggest problem with your perception. I am *NOT* bashing the book! I am in fact doing the opposite! I'm trying to get past this lie that it's not a price increase and admit it's a price increase so we can try and persuade people that the quality of the content more than makes up for the price increase. You seem to think that anyone who mentions that this was a price increase is "bashing" the book. That's just not correct.

When Monte said it had the physical qualities of a college textbook instead of an RPG book, he's not kidding. The book lays flat. All of the pages are attached to the binding. This book will be intact long after Spycraft 2.0 and the World of Warcraft RPG have fallen apart.

Which is cool. Except, better binding still isn't a $40 justification. It didn't actually cost $40 more to make a better binding, for example (not even when marking up the binding costs for a reasonable profit margin).

Now, is that worth more money to you? Only you can say. But I assure you, it's pretty clear the money spent there did indeed get the owners what was advertised: A solid book that will last decades.

I remember when my brother and I played 1E and our core books were eventually held together with duct tape (we were young and limited in options), since in only a few years of play, they totally came apart from their bindings. If we'd gotten Ptolus in 1979, we'd still be using that copy.


Never pretended otherwise. Stop acting like the extras are worthless or this book physically compares to other books.

The extras other than the CD are in fact worthless. In fact, they are less than worthless, since the people you are speaking to right now cannot get them and you're just making people feel like they are getting less than they should if they buy the book at their game store.

The CD has value. You can add the value up yourself. It's a fixed, known value. And it's less than the price increase on this book.

What a pantload. I can't convince someone whose calling in life is to wander between message boards, constructing "proofs" that something isn't worth owning. Neither you nor I can determine what something is worth to other people.

Again, you missed the boat on what this whole thread, and my whole point, is about. I am saying the opposite of "isn't worth owning". I'm saying people are looking at this book, looking at the price tag, and right now saying they don't think it's worth that kind of money. And instead of telling them why the quality of the content is worth the price, you're going around pretending it's not a price increase. That doesn't convince anyone to buy the book. They have eyes. They can see for themselves it's a price increase. They are gamers and doing the math themselves. The goal should be to discuss the quality of the content and stop pretending the price wasn't increased.

It's been stated at enormous length at Ptolus.com.

And, frankly, unless someone acts now, it's a pointless exercise anyway. Ptolus is not following Malhavoc/White Wolf home from GenCon. They didn't print that many copies and I know quite a few people who are intending to pick it up there.

This is just plain false, and frankly I think perhaps the worst dis-service you could possibly do to this book. I venture to gyess more than 80% of these books will be sold AFTER GenCon at game stores. Your world of Monte's board and GenCon is very small compared to the wider world of RPG gaming, and MOST people in this world who are planning on purchasing Ptolus will not even be able to get it until after GenCon. So please, stop "bashing" Ptolus by telling people it's no longer available after GenCon - unless you are REALLY trying to kill the product before it's even released.

 

[Nightfall]

*is completely neutral here* I didn't order it. I probably won't order it. I'll let you all deal with whatever issues you have with this product. If there are issues. Personally I just decided I didn't need a city that big. But if others like it, that's their choice.

 

[Falkus]

I'll probably pick it up in a year or two when I manage to get another gaming group together.

 

[Nightfall]

Falkus,

By then you'll only get bits and pieces! But hey if it works for you man. I'd say wait until there's a copy of RAR for sale on E-bay. You'll get that quicker probably.

 

[Numion]

Never pretended otherwise. Stop acting like the extras are worthless or this book physically compares to other books.

I think people shouldn't look too hard at the page counts. From what I've seen the font is smaller than on most RPG books, and the pages are just so full of information - which is still easy to use, thanks to professional editing and the "links" on sidebars.

(I quoted that sentence from you because indeed, the book compares very favorably physically to other RPG books.)

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

Aside the from the cost and level of detail, what is there to seperate this city book from any of the other city books?

 

[Nightfall]

Not sure for me there's that much but considering the scope, details and the vast amount of stuff, it's probably bigger in scope than Waterdeep or Greyhawk Castle too. It's certainly twice the size of most cities of metropolis sized. In any case that's all I know.

 

[jaycrockett]

The extras other than the CD are in fact worthless. In fact, they are less than worthless, since the people you are speaking to right now cannot get them and you're just making people feel like they are getting less than they should if they buy the book at their game store.

This isn't quite true. There are other extras that people who buy the book DO still get.

A double sided full color poster map.
Three bound in fabric bookmarks and four cardstock bookmarks.
16 black and white and 8 full-color handouts

Eberron, for comparison, has none of these features.

Add these features in with a deluxe binding, embossed cover, and $20 worth of PDF's we get closer to $40 extra you feel the book is overpriced.

Ultimately though, I agree, this is a descision based on quality, not quantity. This is a luxury product. I doubt many people will pick up Ptolus as their first Malhavok press product.

 

[Voadam]

Grumpy Celt

Based off my experience with Ptolus from Banewarrens, Chaositech, and PG and using Ptolus in a shared DM campaign:

Fully incorporates D&D level of D&D magic and atmosphere as part of the setting. Has a bit of Cthulhu/Elric dark edge with Galchutt and chaos. Built in megadungeons reasonably integrated into the city and its history. Lots of politics and factions: secret societies, cults, religious orders, noble rivalries, prestige class groups, etc. Ways to establish a monotheistic religious feel in a D&D world with pantheism.

 

[HighPriest of Syrinx]

It's taking the actual senario, not the worst possible senario. Freebies given for preordering a book are not the product itself. That's why they are called freebies. It's the view Monte seems to take on it, and everyone except you on his board. Maybe you should check the thread in question again - nobody agreed with you that the Freebies should count as the product itself.

Freebies which you no longer can get do in fact no longer count. Yes. What is so wrong about that? And the CD does count...it just doesn't make up for the price increase. Do the math yourself if you don't believe it, rather than making assumptions. Add up the actual current price to buy each CD item from Monte separately.

The extras other than the CD are in fact worthless. In fact, they are less than worthless, since the people you are speaking to right now cannot get them and you're just making people feel like they are getting less than they should if they buy the book at their game store.

The "freebies" that you are referring to are actually an 8.5 x 11" envelope attached inside the back cover of the book (yes, it still comes with the book - yes, it's really part of the book). The CD is in there along with ~25 pages of campaign handouts and reference materials, such as: 1) a full-color poster sized map of the city (one side) and the highest-level dungeon maps (back), 2) 6 pages of random encounter tables (~350 separate events), 3) full color handout map for the players, with a notes page on the reverse, 4) Ptolus-specific reference tables to be clipped to the inside of a DM-screen, 5) A description of Ptolus-specific "events" (read: adventure hooks) that a DM can throw any time or place, 6) ready-made color props such as "adventurers wanted" posters that a party might see posted in the city, menus, wine label, tavern rules, calling cards, etc. that a party is likely to encounter during the campaign, 7) blown-up artwork and description detail for the Delver's Square where adventurers are most likely to hang out, and lots more that I can't even recall right now. Basically, it's all stuff that should be found in any typical campaign setting, but that would be bound into the book (ie, pagecount) in a format that's of little use to a DM without a scanner. The CD itself actually includes electronic copies of most of that stuff for easy editing/printing by the DM, along with complete, searchable, electronic versions of the book's index and table of contents for quick reference by laptop using DMs (for convenience, as well as to limit "fluff" in the actual pagecount -- the expanded TOC alone is 13 pages of pdf). Basically, it's a bunch of stuff intended to add immersion to the game without creating an additional load on the DM. I wish there was a good way to communicate how many other facets of the book are designed along those same lines, but pagecount certainly ain't it.

Instead of characterizing the bonus materials as fluff that no one would want, how about just telling people what's in there so they can make up their own minds about whether it has value of not? Monte's listed an overview of the Book/CD contents here: http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_Ptolus_TOC

Which is cool. Except, better binding still isn't a $40 justification. It didn't actually cost $40 more to make a better binding, for example (not even when marking up the binding costs for a reasonable profit margin).

The book covers are embossed, front and back, and include 3 ribbon bookmarks sewn into the bindings for marking places. Each separate section of the book has color-coded tabs visible on the page ends for quick reference. 4 cardstock bookmarks are included as well. Monte's built this book with a DM in mind. I don't know why you'd even compare it, physically, to a typical gaming book like the core books.