D&D 5E What is Quality?

[payn]

I think table top games (including board games) are in a different category than many products. However, something judged high quality is often based on what people have decided is high quality. For example people compare McDonalds to 5 star restaurants. Which I get, but then they make claims like 5 star restaurants are better for you. That's where I disagree - eating regularly at most 5 star restaurants would be incredibly unhealthy because in most cases their food is incredibly high in fat content. At least you can (or at least used to be able to) get a salad at McDonalds that wasn't 4,000 calories. Same with wine. Most people can't tell the difference between a bottle of wine that costs $20 vs one that costs $400. In fact in various studies, the $20 bottle comes out on top.

I do agree though, TTRPG quality after a certain point of competence is down to personal preference.

Kinda with you, but I think you are making a mistake here like the original 5 star vs McD's argument. People dont pick McD's because they like it better, they pick it because you cant get a Gordon Ramsey burger at the price of a happy meal. As for health, 5 Star restaurants have menus too. You can get a healthy 5 star meal like you can get a salad at McDs.

Wine is a different story. Price often determines quality, but its not a sure factor of quality. Sometimes a wine is expensive only because it's rare. Wineries also have seasonal crop effectiveness to their quality. Some years will just be better than others. Hard to account for that in pricing, but the best wineries have the best crop and technique. Which, is why they often fetch the best prices due to the power of their brand.

 

[Helldritch]

This is an example of "it's not a problem. Oh, yes, here are the houserules I used to fix it."

House rules are not only to correct or fix problems. Sometimes, it is to enhance a rule and/or adapt it to better suit the table. We have house rules for the concentration mechanic not because it is not working, but to make it better suited to our tastes.

 

[Maxperson]

I think table top games (including board games) are in a different category than many products.

Which is why I opened with... " For something like a roleplaying game, which is more complex and pretty much of the mind, it's going to be very subjective and not much else."

However, something judged high quality is often based on what people have decided is high quality. For example people compare McDonalds to 5 star restaurants. Which I get, but then they make claims like 5 star restaurants are better for you. That's where I disagree - eating regularly at most 5 star restaurants would be incredibly unhealthy because in most cases their food is incredibly high in fat content. At least you can (or at least used to be able to) get a salad at McDonalds that wasn't 4,000 calories.

No. Compare the restaurant hamburger to the McDonald's hamburger and the restaurant objectively wins out on quality. You might prefer the taste of the Big Mac, but the quality of the meat isn't going to be in the same league as the 5 star restaurant. And the thing is, you can also get a salad and leave it at that at a 5 star restaurant, so McDonalds having a much lower quality salad(again objectively due to quality of ingredients) doesn't mean much. The 5 star salad will also have fresher, and therefore healthier, ingredients. And a greater variety of healthy ingredients. The 5 star dressing will also generally be healthier for you. You can bet that they use quality virgin olive oils and other healthier ingredients than what McDonalds uses for its dressings.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No. Compare the restaurant hamburger to the McDonald's hamburger and the restaurant objectively wins out on quality. You might prefer the taste of the Big Mac, but the quality of the meat isn't going to be in the same league as the 5 star restaurant.

I mean do we even need to go to a 5 star restaurant for this... 5 guys, bufflo wild wings and Ruby Tuesdays are all in the same range as mcdonalds but an obvious step up

 

[delericho]

Wine is a different story. Price often determines quality, but its not a sure factor of quality. Sometimes a wine is expensive only because it's rare. Wineries also have seasonal crop effectiveness to their quality. Some years will just be better than others.

This is a key issue - since some years are better than others, you may well find the 2022 bottle from a vineyard at $20 and the 2019 (or whatever) at a considerably higher price - because the 2019 is known to be good while the 2022 is an unknown quantity.

Of course, that doesn't work indefinitely - once you get to a really old wine, there's a good chance what you have is absurdly expensive vinegar.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Not in the least. It is a good mechanic but has problems is a perfectly valid statement.

You'll notice I absolutely did not say "it's not a problem" I said good but could use a fix. That is quite different from "it's not a problem."

Ok. It's good. But you choose to fix it because...? If something is being judged good, a major change (and the moving of locus of choice from the GM's side of the screen to the player is a pretty big change in D&D) is rarely called for. This is the exact form of the argument that is frustrating -- 'no, no, the rule is perfectly good. It's not a problem. By the way, here's the houserule I use for that rule, you should consider it, it fixes it.'

 

[Maxperson]

I mean do we even need to go to a 5 star restaurant for this... 5 guys, bufflo wild wings and Ruby Tuesdays are all in the same range as mcdonalds but an obvious step up

Well no, but then I wasn't the one who made the comparison that wide.

As someone who eats at both 5 star restaurants and occasionally McDonalds, it's not even close, even though both taste really good.

 

[Ovinomancer]

House rules are not only to correct or fix problems. Sometimes, it is to enhance a rule and/or adapt it to better suit the table. We have house rules for the concentration mechanic not because it is not working, but to make it better suited to our tastes.

"Enhance." "Adapt." These are not terms that are used for a rule that one finds to be good, but one that is a problem. It may not be a showstopping problem, but it's not working properly and needs to be addressed. This is the form of "no problem, but here's my houserule" that argues that to be a problem the rules has to be clearly broken and unusable. If it just clunks it's not a problem; it just needs a hand.

 

[soviet]

I've found the problem isn't a player forgetting to use inspiration. It's a DM forgetting to, or being too distracted to give it out. The ONLY times (in recent memory) I can remember a player getting it (when I've also been a player) is when that player did something extraordinary or was spotlight hogging and REALLY got the DMs attention. That's my issue with it.

I think the real problem is that Inspiration doesn't really do enough. It's nice but quite often you will already have advantage on key rolls. If it was something like 'add 10 to your roll' you can bet people wouldn't forget about it.

 

[Mort]

Ok. It's good. But you choose to fix it because...? If something is being judged good, a major change (and the moving of locus of choice from the GM's side of the screen to the player is a pretty big change in D&D) is rarely called for. This is the exact form of the argument that is frustrating -- 'no, no, the rule is perfectly good. It's not a problem. By the way, here's the houserule I use for that rule, you should consider it, it fixes it.'

No,

The mechanic itself is good but is a problem because, as is, it's hard to implement (and here's how to fix that) - is quite different from "it's fine."

There's a BIG difference between "it's fine because I have a house rule," and "it's flawed, but here's a house rule to fix it."

The first does not acknowledge a problem/issue, the second does.