D&D 5E What is Quality?

[Ovinomancer]

Then we have different definitions. Can you actually define what quality is to you? I took a stab, do you have a different idea?

I have, twice already. But it's interesting to hear you state that cost is a factor in quality for you. It appears to be a discount -- as in the higher the cost, the less quality counts? Or is it a cut-off, that at a certain point, cost eliminates a product from considerations of quality with other products in a different category?

I ask because I think it's rather relevant to comparing quality between some low budget but wonderfully designed Indie space RPGs and, say, 5e, which has a relatively massive budget for all facets. Do we discount one or the other, or even exclude them?

 

[FrogReaver]

Many people have been comparing McDonalds to 5 star restaurants. It's comparing apples to gold plated oranges which I don't think really makes a lot of sense. For their target audience the Model T was a quality car in comparison to other vehicles of the time whether or not you accept it. The comparisons to other cars of the time is a quick google search away.

I think there’s one clear example of subjective in the quality discussion. What categorizations does one use. McDonald’s to me is clearly lower quality that a 5 star restaurant though I may enjoy McDonald’s more (not big on super fancy restaurants). But if we can’t even place them in the same category to compare then that changes everything.

When I think of quality I think of 2 aspects.
1. Working without breaking
2. Comparative intrinsic and derived performance vs similarly categorized competitors

Compare with value. There may be certain features I recognize as top of the class ‘great quality’ that I may not value highly. For example I may not want to buy a very fast car a 16 year old son because speed in that case while quality is at odds with what I want out of the purchase.

Or in RPG terms. Does D&D breakdown? I don’t think it’s a rare occurrence for it to do so. But it works enough if the time that I’d give it a C+

How does it stack up against the competition? I’d say it’s slightly above average. So C+. There’s just alot of variance in what different rpgs bring to the table - making it hard to have a really good categorization to compare similar ones.

As such is I’d say we are mostly comparing d&d’s value when we talk about it’s quality. And value is a very personal determination.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Sounds reasonable. Is there any product you would say is poor quality despite popularity/good sales?

I'd say a good example is Maruchan(sp?) ramen noodles. The ones that are sold in 10 packs for a dollar (at least the last time I've bought them)

From an overall food perspective they are "junk food".

From a ramen noodle standpoint they dont have the fresh ingredients you would find in homemade.

From a dried store-bought pre-packaged ramen noodle perspective they dont even have the odd dried pea, green onion, or other floaty but of ingredient. They just have the flavored salt packet.

If you were to stack all the ramen noodle dishes in the world in a big quality stack the saltpacket noodlebrick would be at the bottom.

This isn't to say they are unsafe or inedible, but barring a recall (thanks Jif salmonella) nothing at the grocery is.

 

[Aldarc]

That's not how quality works. You don't get to say that McDonalds is high quality food by only limiting comparisons for food to Carl's Jr. You are engaged in special pleading, trying to limit the scope of comparison solely based on how supportive it is of your desired conclusion.

And I fully encourage people to do that research, but actually look at the gamut of cars -- because all cars is the comparison set for quality. Cost is not a factor for quality. Trying to limit the comparison on cost is using a metric that isn't relevant to quality.

I do think that people can and do say whether a product represents good quality within certain criteria, namely price range. A lot of product-hunting on online shops involves looking for a quality product within price ranges.

A $20 Espresso Machine may be a great value quality product at the $25 and under price range, but to conclude then, however, that the $20 Espresso Machine is of equal quality as the professional barista grade $600 Espresso Machine would generally be disingenuous IMHO. Moreover, sometimes it is incredibly difficult for lay people to know what to look for in a quality espresso machine. A lay person may look at things like popularity rating, product reviews, general appearance, familiar big name brands, etc. In contrast, a barista will likely have a much better idea about what constitutes a high quality espresso machine and who actually makes them. The low quality espresso machines may, for example, have a bunch of extraneous crap and devices that are meant to simply things but actually complicates things more. The lay person my find this as evidence of its higher quality not knowing why its crap, but a barista may find see it as a red flag.

This does not mean that cheap is bad. The Bialetti Moka Pot is an enduring device of coffee making in many households across Europe, especially around Italy.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Or in RPG terms. Does D&D breakdown? I don’t think it’s a rare occurrence for it to do so. But it works enough if the time that I’d give it a C+

How does it stack up against the competition? I’d say it’s slightly above average. So C+. There’s just alot of variance in what different rpgs bring to the table - making it hard to have a really good categorization to compare similar ones.

I think compared to most it's competition I might even get it up to a B... but I agree with you overall

 

[Doc_Klueless]

Well sure. If you live on just one bite of chocolate a day you'll lose weight. Obviously volume is a factor.

Sorry. Was gone for the week. My point was just that people can't replicate his results. Heck, universities can't replicate his results.

And that just about anything taken to extremes can be quite deadly.

I really do hate that film. He goes in all high and mighty but tends to use pictures, snippets and blurbs of obese people in a mocking manner.

I work in healthcare as a CRNA. See lots and lots of obese people. MOST of them brought it on themselves either through habits or ignorance (some are even honest about it) but not all of them. I feel horrible for them.

 

[Mort]

Sorry. Was gone for the week. My point was just that people can't replicate his results. Heck, universities can't replicate his results.

And that just about anything taken to extremes can be quite deadly.

I really do hate that film. He goes in all high and mighty but tends to use pictures, snippets and blurbs of obese people in a mocking manner.

I work in healthcare as a CRNA. See lots and lots of obese people. MOST of them brought it on themselves either through habits or ignorance (some are even honest about it) but not all of them. I feel horrible for them.

Can't remember where, but I saw an analysis of the movie that was 100% in agreement with you. Even the "diet" his GF put him on after the fact was deemed terrible, unhealthy and "why would you do that..." The whole film is just a disingenuous terrible piece of media (but it sure looks nice and flows well).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I work in healthcare as a CRNA. See lots and lots of obese people. MOST of them brought it on themselves either through habits or ignorance (some are even honest about it) but not all of them. I feel horrible for them.

what factor do you think genetics play? because again even when I diet and exercise my metabolism wont keep up with my buddy matt sleeping and tipple eating me. I have found I need medication including hormone changing ones to effect said metabolism, and in my family (especially my mothers side) it is only people overweight and smokers or drug addicts (and the two that had the stomach staple thing but one still put the weight back on)

I CAN'T believe that me and my great grand dad who had so little in common made the same bad choices...

 

[Doc_Klueless]

what factor do you think genetics play? because again even when I diet and exercise my metabolism wont keep up with my buddy matt sleeping and tipple eating me. I have found I need medication including hormone changing ones to effect said metabolism, and in my family (especially my mothers side) it is only people overweight and smokers or drug addicts (and the two that had the stomach staple thing but one still put the weight back on)

I CAN'T believe that me and my great grand dad who had so little in common made the same bad choices...

Genetics runs havoc through lots of people's health status. We call it having "poor protoplasm" which is short hand for "their genetics makes them predisposed to... [name your disease]." Meanwhile the dude who smokes, lives on sugar, never exercises, etc., etc. who somehow remains healthy has "good protoplasm."

Unfortunately, it's near impossible to overcome "poor" genetics completely, but it is possible to mitigate some of its effects. Diet, exercise, etc. can help. Ignoring those sorts of things will only hasten along the disease process. It also should be pointed out that Overweight does not necessarily equate to Unhealthy. It probably does, but might not. Surprising I know, but true.

That's why, before I (or any other anesthesia provider) put someone under, we do a thorough health and physical assessment along with questions about immediate family (if known). Tends to irritate patients to hear the same questions again, but ya can never tell what might have been missed.

As the joke goes "We put you to sleep for free. It's making it so you wake up again where we earn our keep."

Anyway. This is a derail of this thread. I'm gonna move on. LOL.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I do think that people can and do say whether a product represents good quality within certain criteria, namely price range. A lot of product-hunting on online shops involves looking for a quality product within price ranges.

A $20 Espresso Machine may be a great value quality product at the $25 and under price range, but to conclude then, however, that the $20 Espresso Machine is of equal quality as the professional barista grade $600 Espresso Machine would generally be disingenuous IMHO. Moreover, sometimes it is incredibly difficult for lay people to know what to look for in a quality espresso machine. A lay person may look at things like popularity rating, product reviews, general appearance, familiar big name brands, etc. In contrast, a barista will likely have a much better idea about what constitutes a high quality espresso machine and who actually makes them. The low quality espresso machines may, for example, have a bunch of extraneous crap and devices that are meant to simply things but actually complicates things more. The lay person my find this as evidence of its higher quality not knowing why its crap, but a barista may find see it as a red flag.

This does not mean that cheap is bad. The Bialetti Moka Pot is an enduring device of coffee making in many households across Europe, especially around Italy.

This is a subtle goal post shift, and part of what I'm pointing out. Here's what I mean -- you can absolutely make a statement that within a price range you can evaluate the quality of items inside that range. However, at no point does that statement improve the quality evaluation of those items compared to the entire range. You can say, "for products less than $X dollars, product Y is the best quality." But you've included those qualifiers, and your statement doesn't, in any way, imply that product Y is of best quality compared to a wider set or the entire set. It's also worth noting that such narrowing of the range should be independent of the desire to claim a product is of a certain quality -- it's disingenuous to claim that product Y is the best quality by artificially limiting the field so that this is true or truthy enough.

So, when I made a statement as to the quality compared to the entire range, a counter argument that artificially narrows that range to achieve the desired outcome is special pleading.