What is "railroading" to you (as a player)?

I wouldn't be averse to importing something like Pendragon's Virtues & Vices system to a D&D style game wholesale, just to see how it would run. Heck, the rest of Pendragon's mechanics play pretty traditionally, so it's not like it can't fit.
I did use it in limited fashion for a solo 3pp adventure I ran for someone which adventure made sense to have something along these lines. It was half baked but fun nevertheless.
I will say it is tricky - I certainly need more practice running such a system and I'm sure it would be challenging to the players, but that is half the enjoyment.
 

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These too are nice ideas for the use of social skills by NPCs! Like I have been saying this space is very unexplored in D&D.
I'm likely to poach and find a way to incorporate this thinking for a social encounter. Thanks!

This is more-or-less the approach I've been suggesting, though perhaps a bit more brute-force than what Bill is suggesting there (I'm not quite clear on an example of what they mean).
 






It is wilful by the player that that agency be limited. In the same way one can choose to fail a saving throw or be persuaded.
They decide on the scores of their traits, passions etc. That is a knowing risk decided by the player.

I keep thinking about this.

Does this mean that if I am playing, say D&D, and I want to retain my agency I should just refuse to assign scores to mental stats? Or by agreeing to play the game am I by definition giving up my agency?
 

But are they present? What if they aren't? What if your mental model says that the character feels one way and the rules say they feel another way? And of course, if the description sufficiently evoked the emotion already, you don't need the rules to say the same thing.

Well, if there’s no chance of being afraid, then why are any kind of fear rules being invoked?

Again, getting away from D&D-esque social skills… let’s look at the knight and the brothel situation. This is a known weakness of the knight. The player knows that if the character goes in there, there will be temptation, and he’ll have to make a roll. This could distract him from his purpose of being there in the first place… making this a tough decision because there is risk involved.

If I’m free to decide how my character acts, there’s no risk.

But that is taking away agency!

But the point of them isn’t to take away agency. The point of them is to emulate the genre and also to create dramatic decision points for the knights.

And I am quite familiar with Arthurian stories. Lancelot is in love with the wife of his king and best friend, and eventually will betray him for that reason. But to me it loses its pathos if that is not a choice by Lancelot, if he is just some automaton driven by his passions. And in agame I don't think "can I roll the right number" is an interesting test of virtues and values.

I would argue that any test of virtues and values that would be interesting or meaningful needs to have some risk involved. Your way is entirely without risk.

Because it is not the same thing! The weak charcter can still want to get otherside of the wall, and can now devise other methods to get there. But rules that dictate the mental state of the chracter affect what they want. This will short cirquit the whole playloop.

What? No. A wall blocks a character physically. A guard that can’t be bribed or that intimidates blocks a character socially. Neither character no linger wants to get inside… they’ve simply been thwarted in the attempt.

The point of character immersion is to lessen that distance, and go with the flow of what the inner mental model of the character says. So no, you cannot fully control it, just like you cannot fully control your real life responses. Like my play example from Blades earlier, I could not have chosen other reaction and remain true to the character.

You absolutely can control your character’s response. And your response will by its nature be different than your character’s. At the very least, it is likely to be less severe. The fear of losing a PC is a type of fear, but it cannot be equated with the fear of dying.

So, when something like this comes up in play, you may be worried as the player. But maybe the character wouldn’t be worried at all! Are you going to roleplay your character as being scared because you are worried that the situation they’re facing might kill them, even if you’ve imagined them to be the kind of person who is unlikely to give in to such concerns?

I doubt it. You will play the character as you’ve imagined them, regardless of whatever personal emotion you may feel. Because your impulse is not what matters. Your considered decision is what matters.
 

Well, if there’s no chance of being afraid, then why are any kind of fear rules being invoked?

Because the GM thinks it is a situation where there is chance of the character being afraid and the player doesn't!

I would argue that any test of virtues and values that would be interesting or meaningful needs to have some risk involved. Your way is entirely without risk.

Sigh. The risk exist in a charged situation in which there is no obvious right choice, and this creates a real weight for the player who is genuinely making that choice. If the GM is incapable of creating such situations and/or if the player is incapable of immersing to the point of view of their character so that they feel that weight, then that cannot be fixed by rolling some dice.

What? No. A wall blocks a character physically. A guard that can’t be bribed or that intimidates blocks a character socially. Neither character no linger wants to get inside… they’ve simply been thwarted in the attempt.

And a NPC that convinces the PC that there is nothing worth seeing behind the wall?

You absolutely can control your character’s response.

Stop saying that. That you are incapable of immersing in mental model of a character is such a way that it gives clear outputs does not mean I am incapable of it.

And your response will by its nature be different than your character’s. At the very least, it is likely to be less severe. The fear of losing a PC is a type of fear, but it cannot be equated with the fear of dying.

So, when something like this comes up in play, you may be worried as the player. But maybe the character wouldn’t be worried at all! Are you going to roleplay your character as being scared because you are worried that the situation they’re facing might kill them, even if you’ve imagined them to be the kind of person who is unlikely to give in to such concerns?

I doubt it. You will play the character as you’ve imagined them, regardless of whatever personal emotion you may feel. Because your impulse is not what matters. Your considered decision is what matters.

Yes, because the emotional output will be modulated by the mental model of the character. A mental model of brave and brash character placed in dangerous fictional situation will give different outputs than a mental model of a cautious and nervous character.

But this is futile. At this point I must conclude that you simply do not understand what I am talking about as it is not something you have experienced. This is like trying to explain colour blue to a blind person. And this is not meant as a slight. You do you. But I am tired of my personal experience being dismissed.
 
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