D&D 5E What is REALLY wrong with the Wizard? (+)

Oofta

Legend
Maybe I just have a different attitude towards the game, but I don't see a huge issue. I don't really care if the wizard does something cool now and then. As long as it helps the group, great!

The biggest problem I have with wizards is that the people who are least capable of playing them tend to gravitate to them. Newbie player that's never seen a D20 joining a game in progress so they're going to be 8th level? Wizard! Every time. :cautious:
 

log in or register to remove this ad

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I'd like to see wizard cantrips with signifcantly lower damage but with more interesting effects.
Interesting. Like just not scaling at 11th and 17th levels, or lower base damage? Something only d4s and d6s?

The issue that I have found is that spells are very versatile and powerful, and Wizards are Best at Spells.
I agree. Do you think shifting some of the versatility away from wizards to other spellcasters would help?

While Wizards are "Best at Spells", I've argued other spellcasters have additional features (Channel Divinity, Wild Shape, Metamagic, Inspiration, Invocations, etc.), so wizards have superior ritual casting as their "additional feature". Do you think that is an adequate reason for their being Best at Spells, since they have nothing else?

The biggest problem I have with wizards is that the people who are least capable of playing them tend to gravitate to them.
I've found this to be an issue with any spellcasting class, though, as new players often don't understand what their spells can do.

Newbie player that's never seen a D20 joining a game in progress so they're going to be 8th level? Wizard! Every time. :cautious:
It's a conspiracy. ;)
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Maybe I just have a different attitude towards the game, but I don't see a huge issue. I don't really care if the wizard does something cool now and then. As long as it helps the group, great!

The biggest problem I have with wizards is that the people who are least capable of playing them tend to gravitate to them. Newbie player that's never seen a D20 joining a game in progress so they're going to be 8th level? Wizard! Every time. :cautious:

I don't think I've seen a competent wizard player since 3E.

Maybe 1 in 5E. The classic misty step+fireball combo+shield until you run out of spell slots. Classic 1d10 or 2d10 damage strategy.

It's more obvious how to play the Warlock/Sorcerer than a wizard imho and it's strengths with rituals lean heavily towards exploration which people may or may not care about.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
The fundamental philosophy of the game is really the issue here. Characters who cannot use magic are more or less bound to what we consider skilled people able to do in real life. At best, a Fighter or Rogue is a Hollywood action hero like one of the "Johns" (Wick, McClane, Matrix, Rambo), but it's a rare sight that a player doesn't want to try a stunt like "I'll slap the horse in the stables and make it kick my enemy" that doesn't immediately translate to "ok, take an action and make me a DC 15 Handle Animal check".

Magical spells, however, by their nature, can bend or break the laws of physics, like hackers in the Matrix. You can fly, phase, teleport, polymorph, shoot lighting bolts, create an army of clones, build a fortress out of rubble- the sky is the limit, because this is what fantasy gamers feel magic is and should be.

D&D attempts to close this gap by making magical spells limited in use, to justify their power. And if all spells did was buff, debuff, damage, or heal, that'd be fine. Fireball for 8d6 to fill most of a room? Sure, but you can only do it twice per day, and the damage might fail to kill a CR 1 Bugbear.

But how do you compare skill use or fighting ability to, say, "the power to turn a ruined old keep into a veritable fortress consisting of magical traps and magically locked doors" (Guards and Wards). You can't. While that power might be only useful once in a blue moon, the same way building a wall to surround a village with Fabricate is, when that incident occurs, you can exert this great narrative power in a short time, where your non-magical allies could only accomplish the same feat with hours of grueling work and many skill checks.

Because there really isn't any way to balance these abilities, as they are simply apples and oranges, orthogonal to one another, and the spellcaster can produce something from their bag of tricks without warning in the right moment, it's no wonder that the Wizard, who has the most deep and varied spell list, has been seen as a proud nail.

Your carefully built BBEG encounter? Trivialized due to a localized ice storm or exiling a demon to the X-Zone for a minute. Your fun detective story? Foiled by mind reading or divination. Even the threat of an army of zombies assaulting a village can be undone once you transmute solid earth into a quagmire of mud!

Magic plays by different rules, and that's exactly as intended. Look at 4e, when Wizards were probably the most balanced they have ever been. People hated it, because the Wizard "didn't feel magical anymore".

Players (and even DM's) exist who want the Wizard (and his spellcasting brethren) to have these kinds of powers. And many of these same people would tell you it's weird and unrealistic for a warrior to be able to leap 30' into the air to RKO a dragon out of nowhere!

So that's the problem with the Wizard; the expectations of the players, who want the class to be able to produce magical effects, large and small, both at will and in limited amounts, and solve all problems, from combat to setting up a campsite, with magic, while at the same time, wanting non-magical classes to be unable to do likewise.
 
Last edited:

Oofta

Legend
I don't think I've seen a competent wizard player since 3E.

Maybe 1 in 5E. The classic misty step+fireball combo+shield until you run out of spell slots. Classic 1d10 or 2d10 damage strategy.

It's more obvious how to play the Warlock/Sorcerer than a wizard imho and it's strengths with rituals lean heavily towards exploration which people may or may not care about.
Yeah, I don't want to get too off track on this because it's a + thread and just wanted to make a joke that the "wrong" people play wizards. Probably because I'm okay not playing a wizard (BTW my non-or-partial-casters regularly out damage the casters if you average it out over 2-3 encounters) but then that means I rarely get to play a wizard.

They might have a good idea with the playtests of giving people a suggested spell list, but the spells that make sense vary from 1 game to the next.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Yeah, I don't want to get too off track on this because it's a + thread and just wanted to make a joke that the "wrong" people play wizards. Probably because I'm okay not playing a wizard (BTW my non-or-partial-casters regularly out damage the casters if you average it out over 2-3 encounters) but then that means I rarely get to play a wizard.

They might have a good idea with the playtests of giving people a suggested spell list, but the spells that make sense vary from 1 game to the next.

Wizards potential to be great there subject to player skill and DM buy in.

Other classes more self contained.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
So that's the problem with the Wizard; the expectations of the players, who want the class to be able to produce magical effects, large and small, both at will and in limited amounts, and solve all problems, from combat to setting up a campsite, with magic, while at the same time, wanting non-magical classes to be unable to do likewise.
I'll update the OP with a paraphrasing of this.
 

Incenjucar

Legend
The ease at which wizards solve problems can make them boring to play. It's like using a machining shop when everyone else is using sticks and mud. Accomplishing something with limited tools feels so much more clever than applying one of the ten pre-made answers in your bag.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
The ease at which wizards solve problems can make them boring to play. It's like using a machining shop when everyone else is using sticks and mud. Accomplishing something with limited tools feels so much more clever than applying one of the ten pre-made answers in your bag.
Can you give any actual gameplay examples you've experienced?
 


Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Upcoming Releases

Top