What is the best party level to have a TPK?

[lordcloaker]

1st lvl is one of the most deadly lvls, all combats are tense, as everyone misses alot and hits are usually deadly.

"DM: Kobold swings... and hits!!"
"Players: My god!"
"DM: 1d6 dmg on the wizard"
"Wizard: My god!!! I have 4 hit points!! I dont want to die !!!"

 

[jeff37923]

How is TPK a "learning lesson" for the party? May be for the players, but the characters are dead and no group of mine would continue a campaign if every character had been killed (even if resurrected). Make a tough challenge and kill 1 character perhaps, that will give the party cause to think...

Now, what I have is based upon my own experience, your mileage may vary and all that.

The players are running the party, so it goes on up the line in lessons learned.

I've seen truly stupid maneuvers from people in games. Things like charging at a foe who is obviously more powerful then the PCs, not scouting out an area before attacking, deliberately pissing off NPCs in positions of power, boldly ignoring warning signs of danger ahead, attacking when vastly outnumbered, the list goes on. I admit that I punish nonthinking players, stupidity kills in my games. I also reward problem solving, and I don't mean the "I kill it - problem solved" kind. If players only try to deal with encounters by killing whatever it is they just met, I let them achieve a TPK when they have met something tougher then they are. Attacking is only one option in a game, there are many more. If you cannot slay that dragon, why not try negotiation? If you cannot kill every orc in an oncoming army, use trickery and guile to fool them into not attacking? If the evil necromancer lich-king is too powerful for you, why not go out and gather allies together untill you have a fighting force capable of taking it out instead of doing a suicide charge?

Brains work just as adequitely as brawn in encounters. Just my own two cents worth.

 

[DonTadow]

Now, what I have is based upon my own experience, your mileage may vary and all that.

The players are running the party, so it goes on up the line in lessons learned.

I've seen truly stupid maneuvers from people in games. Things like charging at a foe who is obviously more powerful then the PCs, not scouting out an area before attacking, deliberately pissing off NPCs in positions of power, boldly ignoring warning signs of danger ahead, attacking when vastly outnumbered, the list goes on. I admit that I punish nonthinking players, stupidity kills in my games. I also reward problem solving, and I don't mean the "I kill it - problem solved" kind. If players only try to deal with encounters by killing whatever it is they just met, I let them achieve a TPK when they have met something tougher then they are. Attacking is only one option in a game, there are many more. If you cannot slay that dragon, why not try negotiation? If you cannot kill every orc in an oncoming army, use trickery and guile to fool them into not attacking? If the evil necromancer lich-king is too powerful for you, why not go out and gather allies together untill you have a fighting force capable of taking it out instead of doing a suicide charge?

Brains work just as adequitely as brawn in encounters. Just my own two cents worth.

Lessons can be learned without killing all the children. Killing one or two pcs can have the same effect. So can loss of limbs, curses, dieseass, ability reduction and polymorphing.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

This type of convo always brings up the great divide in philosophies between those whom think that tpks are good indicators of a in control DM and those whom that would avoid TPKS at all costs. I'm with the latter.

I totally believe that a tpk is an utter failure by all involved. Unless the campaign is a goof-fest (and I admit they're great one offs), I take no pride in being a dm or player involved. As a dm I feel that my decriptions & communication must have been below my standard, & as a player I feel that my tactical sense was again well below par.

I cannot think of any situation where the tpk has been of value - if the campaign is so rotten that the tpk is welcome, why were people even playing?

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Any level. If players are extremely stupid/foolish and unlucky they deserve what their characters get. Or it they are willing to fight heroically to death against overwhelming odds and they regocnize that its fine too.

 

[DonTadow]

I totally believe that a tpk is an utter failure by all involved. Unless the campaign is a goof-fest (and I admit they're great one offs), I take no pride in being a dm or player involved. As a dm I feel that my decriptions & communication must have been below my standard, & as a player I feel that my tactical sense was again well below par.

I cannot think of any situation where the tpk has been of value - if the campaign is so rotten that the tpk is welcome, why were people even playing?

YOu missed a major argument a few weeks ago (one that got the thread shut down) in which a dm had TPK on the party because they could not solve one puzzle. It is a very touchy subject. There are DMs whom believe other DMs "coddle" players by throwing out the possiblity of the TPK. Whereas others argue with your logic that it is pointless to waste a campaign over a lesson or to prove the ulitmiate consequience.

 

[galaga88]

I believe that removing the possibility of a TPK in D&D is depriving the players of a game. My players have made it known that they enjoy my style of GMing because I don't pull punches, and they know that they win battles because of skill and planning, not pity. They also know that a TPK is a real, if unlikely possibility, and would only get mad at themselves if it occured.

However, when we play D&D, we play largely for the combat and loot. It's hack'n'slash. When we want a deep storyline, we play a different system. When we're doing that, the rules become less important and TPKs are taboo because the story has taken the forefront, and player failures are penalized in a different way.

 

[DonTadow]

I believe that removing the possibility of a TPK in D&D is depriving the players of a game. My players have made it known that they enjoy my style of GMing because I don't pull punches, and they know that they win battles because of skill and planning, not pity. They also know that a TPK is a real, if unlikely possibility, and would only get mad at themselves if it occured.

However, when we play D&D, we play largely for the combat and loot. It's hack'n'slash. When we want a deep storyline, we play a different system. When we're doing that, the rules become less important and TPKs are taboo because the story has taken the forefront, and player failures are penalized in a different way.

Very confusing???

So you agree pretty much that in story driven RPGs that TPKs are taboo.

 

[jeff37923]

Lessons can be learned without killing all the children. Killing one or two pcs can have the same effect. So can loss of limbs, curses, dieseass, ability reduction and polymorphing.

When the entire party is participating in the Stupid Maneuver (whatever it may be), then it becomes a TPK. Not all encounters will result in limb loss, or be able to bestow curses, or give the players a disease, cause ability reduction, or cast polymorph.

Here's an example. First level party is out searching for a bandit camp near the crossroads of a few villages. During the wilderness search they see a black dragon in flight, carrying a cow in its talons, land on a rock outcropping a few hundred yards away. The dragon doesn't spot the characters and begins to gruesomely eat the cow while the party watches. Much detail was given to how the dragon "played" with its food in a very sadistic manner, occassionally drooling acid on it just to hear the cow scream and tearing it apart with ease. After this scene, I made a point of saying that it appeared that the dragon laired nearby and perhaps they could go after it when they had progressed beyond first level and gotten some magic items, that it was too strong for them and they were lucky it hadn't noticed the party. Instead, the party attempted a full frontal assault on this thing while it was picking its teeth with a cow rib, including a suicidal charge across 120' of open ground at it. The black dragon killed them dead, all five of them. None of them tried to run away or retreat during the fight, they kept attacking until killed.

TPK - The party demonstrated that they were too stupid to live. No self-preservation instinct.

 

[lonesoldier]

I say fifth, because it's just before the PC's get access to the good weapons/gear and when you can justify throwing higher level stuff at them. ... My players should disregard that.