What is the best party level to have a TPK?

[FreeTheSlaves]

There are DMs whom believe other DMs "coddle" players by throwing out the possiblity of the TPK. Whereas others argue with your logic that it is pointless to waste a campaign over a lesson or to prove the ulitmiate consequience.

I don't throw out the possibility, it has to exist in a (semi)simulationist campaign that I like to play. If it occurs it is beyond bad luck because someone should be able to flee/plead/offer ransom to save their fallen & themselves. I can only see it occurring if the players buy into a do or die + all for one mindset, which is borderline fanaticism.

It can exist but if it ever does, I the dm have to pour enormous effort into kick starting the campaign & integrating new pcs, and there is no guarantee that the players don't repeat such headstrong behaviour. I would not stop it happening but I would not be a happy camper & I'd make sure others feel my anger.

As a player I'll nearly always make a raise dead deal & plan a retreat strategy ahead of time, and I am not afraid to call out "retreat!". I've yet to do it in the current campaign but if retreat is too risky I'm prepared to shock a few sensibilities by saying "will you accept our surrender!?" Hey, the campaign doesn't end even if I'm a prisoner for 10 years but I'd press the dm to fast forward to us blinking in the sunlight as a mysterious stranger pays for our freedom & requires only a 'small favour' in return...

 

[DonTadow]

When the entire party is participating in the Stupid Maneuver (whatever it may be), then it becomes a TPK. Not all encounters will result in limb loss, or be able to bestow curses, or give the players a disease, cause ability reduction, or cast polymorph.

Here's an example. First level party is out searching for a bandit camp near the crossroads of a few villages. During the wilderness search they see a black dragon in flight, carrying a cow in its talons, land on a rock outcropping a few hundred yards away. The dragon doesn't spot the characters and begins to gruesomely eat the cow while the party watches. Much detail was given to how the dragon "played" with its food in a very sadistic manner, occassionally drooling acid on it just to hear the cow scream and tearing it apart with ease. After this scene, I made a point of saying that it appeared that the dragon laired nearby and perhaps they could go after it when they had progressed beyond first level and gotten some magic items, that it was too strong for them and they were lucky it hadn't noticed the party. Instead, the party attempted a full frontal assault on this thing while it was picking its teeth with a cow rib, including a suicidal charge across 120' of open ground at it. The black dragon killed them dead, all five of them. None of them tried to run away or retreat during the fight, they kept attacking until killed.

TPK - The party demonstrated that they were too stupid to live. No self-preservation instinct.

TPKs don't teach lessons though as the only thing you've taught the player is they can roll up a new character at will and go at it again. Thus you'll have players whom dont really do much precharacter development because they learn that theycan play as reckless as possible and reroll at any time. longterm punishments are so much better.

 

[spyscribe]

I voted for 17th, so it wouldn't feel left out.

 

[pogre]

5th - It's a tradition in my campaigns!

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

5th - It's a tradition in my campaigns!

That is the level where the characters won't die wimpy deaths & the players get tempted to think that they are out of the woods. The very low level sense of caution begins to wear off & they know there are few save or die effects yet, but death by hp loss is actually very real.

5th is a checkpoint where the overdue foolish are weeded out before the mid levels begin, or made to re-sit level 4 again.

Yup, I have no beef with raise dead level loss.

 

[sniffles]

TPK at 1st level sucks because you put a bunch of time into your character concept and you didn't even get to play. At high-levels you've put too much effort into your character to just up and die. So at mid levels, it is okay. You've explored the concept, but you haven't dedicated several years to the character (assuming standard advancement rules, and the fact we play once every two weeks). So I voted 9th.

I was going to vote 1st because you're not really involved in your character yet, but on second thought I think maggot has the right idea. I'd be pretty annoyed if I hardly got to play a new PC before she died.

Someone mentioned 5th - 6th, because a player might be starting to get bored around that time. I usually wouldn't agree with that, but I am involved in one campaign at about that level where I'm starting to get a bit disenchanted with my PC and wouldn't object to a TPK (although I doubt all my fellow players would agree with me!).

Actually, I don't think there is a good time for a TPK to occur. If my PC was high level and suffered a TPK I'd feel really frustrated because I'd spent all that time and effort developing the PC and didn't get to see her finish the story (unless the TPK was the end of the story and it was a self-sacrifice situation).

 

[helium3]

I'd say a TPK at first level is required. That way, the players know you mean business.

 

[jeff37923]

TPKs don't teach lessons though as the only thing you've taught the player is they can roll up a new character at will and go at it again. Thus you'll have players whom dont really do much precharacter development because they learn that theycan play as reckless as possible and reroll at any time. longterm punishments are so much better.

So you believe. My own experience has led me to an opinion that contradicts yours. Sorry, but I disagree with you about TPKs.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I don't see how one can't learn from a TPK (and thus be taught a lesson) I don't get this line of argument. If you analyze any situation you can learn something from it. And if you have a good DM he'll explain what you did. In fact before the one TPK in my previous game I told the players it was a bad idea to do what they were doing (I explained why after they did it).
Players don't become reckless (well no more than usual) if you allow them to reroll new chars after a TPK cause generally they like their chars and don't want them to die.

 

[Rackhir]

TPKs don't teach lessons though as the only thing you've taught the player is they can roll up a new character at will and go at it again. Thus you'll have players whom dont really do much precharacter development because they learn that theycan play as reckless as possible and reroll at any time. longterm punishments are so much better.

Many, many, many years ago. We were playing in our regular saturday D&D campaign. Nobody had any characters they were attached to and we were all 1st level. Poking around in the dungeon, we encountered a room that had 3 trolls in it. Our party was promptly slaughtered of course. However in a fit of bloody mindedness, we rolled up new characters and went back there and got slaughtered again. Undeterred, we created yet another set and went straight back in.

Rinse, wash, repeat.

I don't recall exactly how many characters we marched to their death before finally taking down those trolls, but I'm pretty sure it was in the 30+ range. The room was piled high with our dead and stacked at the door. Ah happy memories.