What is the most balanced class?

[Jefe Bergenstein]

If you can't kill or seriously injure targets in a full attack action at 10th level, then you might need new fighters - or the defense structure of the enemies is set up to favor casters (high AC, low saves/SR).

Theres a huge difference between a standard action to kill something and a full attack. D&D needs a feat similar to AE's Burst of Speed, that lets you take an extra move action.

 

[Thanee]

Psion, Psi-war, and Barbarian.

Balance is in the center, not at the top-end of the scale.

And how did the Barbarian get up there?


As for finding the balance for a new class, it should compare decently to all core classes, IMHO.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nyeshet]

Rogue comes to mind instantly.

Thinking a bit longer on it . . . hmmm . . . I believe the Barbarian is balanced, as probably is the 3.5e Ranger (but *not* the 3e Ranger).

Warlock is close to balanced, as is the Psychic Warrior and probably the Psion. The Wizard can be closed to balanced, depending on spell availability (ie: how many they manage to learn, which are available for learning, their spell selection, etc).

The Sorcerer I tend to ignore, having more or less replaced it with the Warlock, but in and of itself the Sorcerer is either a bit over or under balanced, depending on the campaign, spell selection, etc. I'm not really sure one way or the other about the Wilder, having never played one nor had one played in my campaigns.

Those are it amongst the classes I consider core (PHB, XPH, and adding in the Warlock as Sorcerer replacement). All others are at least a bit over powered (cleric, druid), a bit under powered (bard, fighter, soulknife) or have odd rules attached to them (paladin, monk - alignment restrictions on multiclassing, leveling, etc).

 

[Hussar]

If you can't kill or seriously injure targets in a full attack action at 10th level, then you might need new fighters - or the defense structure of the enemies is set up to favor casters (high AC, low saves/SR).

Paladin casting in the core is a joke - its best feature is the ability to use wands without Use Magic Device. It takes supplements with swift action spells or crazy stacking buffs to make it worthwhile in its own right.

I've found casters playing support just as often at high levels. Sure, they've got a million strategic tools. That just makes them great fighter taxis and buffers - and good at debuffing the enemy so fighters can kill it more easily. Increasing saves, SR, resistances/immunities to many attack forms, and defensive spells have, in my experience, often relagated casters to supporting roles as their direct actions have a high failure rate.

A 10th level fighter has 2 attacks. CR 10 creatures are running in 150 hit point ranges. If your fighters are pumping out 75+ points of damage per attack at 10th level, I'm wondering how. Even by 11th level, they might be able to do that much with the third attack, but an attack at -10 tends to miss quite a lot.

I never said that paladins were good casters. What I said was their spell abilities can nicely make up for the disparity between caster and non-caster. No, a paly isn't going to be a blaster. That's a given. But, given a round or two to self buff, he's not too shabby either.

 

[Nyaricus]

PHB2-era fighers

Paladins with divine feats, SC spells

Rogues, more or less (and, on the same note, Scouts - more or less).

cheers,
--N

 

[Hussar]

The problem I have with rogues as the baseline is that they are so easy to nerf. 4 different and fairly common critter types are immune to sneak attack. Someone upthread mentioned 15% of the time facing these kinds of creatures. Basically, that means that 1 fight in 8, the rogue is sitting in the back twiddling his thumbs.

That's not a balanced class IMO. A class shouldn't be rendered as useful as a wizard without spells simply because of the type of creature being fought. Never mind that beyond the four basic types, there are large numbers of creatures of other types that are immune to sneak as well.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Well, really, all of the classes, with the exception of the monk, are balanced in the PHB if you just stick to the rules and don't stray from the core rule books. It is when you add in things like the complete books that things get nuts. Stick to the spells, feats and Prestige classes from the three core books and every class if fairly stable.

I say that the monk it not all that balanced because pound for pound they kick some serious ass in the higher levels. Sure the others do too, but not like the monk. They really shine.

I think the 3.5 non errata Druid is nuts too, but they toned down the wild shape so much now that they may be underpowered now.

The spell casters seem to be balanced up to about 12th level if you allow non core books. If you only go for core books, they are actually fairly balanced throughout.

The two things that will determine the balance are:

1) what rules you allow and don't allow
2) How much your players enjoy finding and breaking all the rules and turning the rules into a bible of fodder to through back at you and proclaim it the truth aka rules lawyers aka power gaming aka meta gaming.

 

[Nifft]

Basically, that means that 1 fight in 8, the rogue is sitting in the back twiddling his thumbs.

Golems are immune to magic. Do they render the Wizard useless? I hope not! He should have some utility value outside of direct attacks.

Rogues have Sneak Attack... and a few skill points. If a Rogue can't find a way to be useful besides Sneak Attack, he's ignoring quite a chunk of his class feature set.

"You must get extra creative 1/8 of the time." Not a terrible model to follow.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Slife]

Rogues, definately. As a rogue, you have dex as one of your main stats, and tons of skill points, and since balance is a class skill maxing out your ranks shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Ozmar]

When eyeballing the power level of a new or variant class, saying that it isn't as powerful as a cleric or druid isn't really useful to people who think that clerics and druids are overpowered. Saying that it is more powerful than a fighter isn't really useful to people who think that fighters need a power boost.

So, which do you think is the most balanced class to compare a new class against?

Dread Necromancer.

They are balanced in awesomeness. They're awesome all over. And that's balanced.

-Ozmar the Dread Necromancer