What is the point of GM's notes?

But you could imagine a place and then map it, you could imagine a house or castle and map it. I am not saying you could imagine a castle that would be functional in terms of architecture. The claim is you are imaging a model that is reproducible
All reproducible means here is that someone else can think of the same thing. That is not controversial. No one in this thread denies it.

What is being discussed is how does the reproduction take place? Ie how do the players learn the contents of the GM's imagination?

I don't think the answer is very hard. Gygax and Moldvay make it clear enough: the GM tells them.
 

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This is not what the typical mental model is like.

The typical GM does not have an image of those things. Anymore than the typical geometry student doing a problem about an icosahedron (let alone a chiliagon) has a literal image of one in his/her mind. The GM has various sentences in mind, like the ones you have written down. And then there is a map which captures some of that information via standard conventions for drawing floor plans, elevations etc.

In any event, I don't believe that any of this is contentious. Gygax and Moldvay set it all out very clearly. Everyone posting in this thread has done it. But for some reason there are some posters who seem to think it is "dismissive" or "reductive" to point any of this out.
No, I don't think this is the case at all. I don't have any sentences in my mind at all. I only have images. I am not going to say I imagine a whole world or anything. But if my players are standing at the entrance of a dungeon, I see the the entrance to the dungeon, its environs and the rooms of the dungeon in my head (obviously if it is a complex dungeon I may clearly imagine the first several rooms and hold a more general pattern of the rest in my head----again this is why notes are useful). World building is a combination of that and putting it down on paper.
 

No, I don't think this is the case at all. I don't have any sentences in my mind at all. I only have images. I am not going to say I imagine a whole world or anything. But if my players are standing at the entrance of a dungeon, I see the the entrance to the dungeon, its environs and the rooms of the dungeon in my head (obviously if it is a complex dungeon I may clearly imagine the first several rooms and hold a more general pattern of the rest in my head----again this is why notes are useful). World building is a combination of that and putting it down on paper.
If this was really true I do wonder how you would tell - from your mental image - whether the walls are 10' or 12' tall. Or whether the corner is a true right-angle or more like 85 degrees.

But my guess is that you supplement your image with verbal descriptions. And that you then write those things down.

And either way, I don't know where you think this is going. No one disputes that GMs can imagine things, and tell those things to other people including RPG players.
 

All reproducible means here is that someone else can think of the same thing. That is not controversial. No one in this thread denies it.

What is being discussed is how does the reproduction take place? Ie how do the players learn the contents of the GM's imagination?

I don't think the answer is very hard. Gygax and Moldvay make it clear enough: the GM tells them.
And no one is denying the role of speech. What is being debated is the significance of the image you are holding in your mind and how the communication between the GM and the players on the matter plays out (it isn't simply the GM telling them, they are also asserting how they want to interact with this model and there is synergy that takes place there)
 

If this was really true I do wonder how you would tell - from your mental image - whether the walls are 10' or 12' tall. Or whether the corner is a true right-angle or more like 85 degrees.

But my guess is that you supplement your image with verbal descriptions. And that you then write those things down.
The same way I estimate the height of the wall next to my house: I picture it being a certain height and then I guess at the actual footage of it (or if I want I can imagine a little line next to it indicating the height). Again, at some point you want to write these things down. My purpose in the post was to point out many of us do approach this visually and don't think about sentences at all. I think this is a big part of these disagreements. People imagine things differently. They understand things differently. Etc.
 

What is being debated is the significance of the image you are holding in your mind
In the sort of play where maps and keys are important, I think that this is very important. As I've posted upthread, it dictates the outcomes of many action declarations the players make for their PCs.

I don't know anymore whether you agree or disagree with that - because upthread I thought you disagreed but now you seem to be agreeing.

how the communication between the GM and the players on the matter plays out (it isn't simply the GM telling them, they are also asserting how they want to interact with this model and there is synergy that takes place there)
I don't know what synergy means here. Gygax's explanation is very straightforward: there are notes that tell us how the limed-over skeleton will behave if prodded. If those notes weren't there, then the GM would have to extrapolate something from his/her notes.

In this and other threads I have referred to players declaring actions for their PCs which oblige the GM to provide information taken from or extrapolated from his/her notes. This is what Moldvay and Gygax illustrate for us in their examples of play.

As far as I can tell you think that something different is happening, but I don't know what the difference is. I can't tell if you think that Gygax and Moldvay are describing a different process of play from the one you favour, or not. I am describing exactly the same thing that they exemplify.
 

The same way I estimate the height of the wall next to my house: I picture it being a certain height and then I guess at the actual footage of it (or if I want I can imagine a little line next to it indicating the height). Again, at some point you want to write these things down. My purpose in the post was to point out many of us do approach this visually and don't think about sentences at all.
I think one difference is that if you're not sure how high your house wall is you can measure it. But you can't measure the height of the wall you're imaging. When you imagine the measuring tape hanging down the length of the imaginary wall you have to further imagine what number it shows. There is no objective standard of correctness.

This is also relevant to your remark upthread about a "thought experiment". Thought experiments in mathematics and physics have objective standards of correctness, because they are worked out applying mathematical rules.

RPGing doesn't look like this except in some corner-case instances such as correlating distances, movement rates and time passed.
 

If this was really true I do wonder how you would tell - from your mental image - whether the walls are 10' or 12' tall. Or whether the corner is a true right-angle or more like 85 degrees.
I think in most instances I wouldn't note something like a two foot difference. I am imagining something in my head and saying to myself "that seems about 10 feet high". But like I said, i can imagine a scale next to it if distance is very important (which it was in the session two days ago that I mentioned). The image I put on the page was in my head before I wrote it down. I am not claiming perfect measurement in my head by any stretch. I am saying I can imagine a workable model. And I think this is something you have to do a lot and cultivate if you run theater of the mind (which is what I always do because I hate tactical grids and miniatures). If you don't want players getting mad at you all the time, you have to really visualize what is going on so you can relay that to your players or note it on paper for them. This is especially the case if you are running theater of the mind, melee combat heavy (wuxia in my case) campaigns.

This is the way I imagine everything. I don't imagine my settings history as text (nor do I imagine real world history as text). I imagine a timeline with things marked not he timeline----and I imagine maps in my head----for example a map of the extent of the Roman Empire at its height. When I think about Caligula for example, I see a timeline with a focus on around 40 AD (he reigned from 37 to 41 AD). Not saying this are prefect mu head. But I am saying I see images not text. When I smell something, I don't see text or have a verbal description, I see color and texture.
 
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I think one difference is that if you're not sure how high your house wall is you can measure it. But you can't measure the height of the wall you're imaging. When you imagine the measuring tape hanging down the length of the imaginary wall you have to further imagine what number it shows. There is no objective standard of correctness.
But numbers provide an objective measure. Again if height of a door is important, I can imagine that. Especially in the kinds of increments that are usually important to gaming (because it is ingrained).
 

This is also relevant to your remark upthread about a "thought experiment". Thought experiments in mathematics and physics have objective standards of correctness, because they are worked out applying mathematical rules.
I am saying it is a thought experiment in the sense of counterfactual history or in the sense of thinking about an imaginary situation. So I am using it in the sense of "What would a culture of people who can't die from old age, but can die a violent death look like". Most game worlds are filled with these kinds of thought experiments
 

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