What is the point of GM's notes?

[pemerton]

The issue I had was "playing to discover the GM's notes" - doesn't at the outset paint a particular roleplaying style in good stead

Why not?

This is how crosswords work. This is how escape rooms work. This is how Call of Cthuhlu modules work. This is how Tomb of Horrors work. This is how Christopher Tolkien has made his living. Many of those are regarded as fun pursuits by a non-trivial number of people. The notion that it's pejorative to actually describe how puzzles work in the context of a RPG is strange to me.

 

[Lanefan]

Well, since the people in question have stated that they garner significant practical benefit from certain sorts of analysis and deconstruction, who are you to say it's not useful? I find it enormously useful in terms of growing my practical at-the-table skill set. So what? Am I lying? Mistaken? I don't get what you're trying to achieve here.

I am neither saying nor suggesting that you're either lying or mistaken; and if it came across as such, apologies.

You find this all useful, which is excellent. Personally, though I find some of these threads quite interesting to start with I find they almost inevitably go rather over-the-top; and I'm not above bursting the occasional balloon.

I also find I often have to defend my own playstyle and-or try to blunt what can sometimes seem a wave of evangelism from proponents of other styles.

 

[Fenris-77]

I am neither saying nor suggesting that you're either lying or mistaken; and if it came across as such, apologies.

You find this all useful, which is excellent. Personally, though I find some of these threads quite interesting to start with I find they almost inevitably go rather over-the-top; and I'm not above bursting the occasional balloon.

I also find I often have to defend my own playstyle and-or try to blunt what can sometimes seem a wave of evangelism from proponents of other styles.

That's fine and reasonable. I was struggling with what you were trying to achieve, both with this post and the other one I replied to. My apologies if I didn't give you enough leeway, I'm having a bit of a grumpy evening.

 

[Lanefan]

Ugh. Judgey much? Are there any other parts of the hobby that people are doing wrong based on your perfect balance and comprehension of what's involved? Gimme a break. I suspect I know what you're trying to achieve here, but all you've managed is being bloody rude and dismissive. I feel like avoiding badwrongfun accusations is the way go, rather than leaning into them.

If what amounts to a broad-based "lighten up" comes across as rude and dismissive there's not much I can say.

That said, if in my opinion someone's doing it wrong I don't mind saying so, just as I expect the same in return if they think the same of me. Otherwise we have an echo chamber, and what's the point of that?

 

[Lanefan]

That's fine and reasonable. I was struggling with what you were trying to achieve, both with this post and the other one I replied to. My apologies if I didn't give you enough leeway, I'm having a bit of a grumpy evening.

You and me both!

 

[Fenris-77]

If what amounts to a broad-based "lighten up" comes across as rude and dismissive there's not much I can say.

That said, if in my opinion someone's doing it wrong I don't mind saying so, just as I expect the same in return if they think the same of me. Otherwise we have an echo chamber, and what's the point of that?

It was a bit pointy for a "lighten up" comment, which was why I wasn't sure what to make of it. Maybe it reads different than you were hoping? IDK, anyway, I think we've cleared up any confusion.

 

[pemerton]

What exactly about your playstyle or goals has changed as a result of that knowledge? I may have missed it but I haven't seen you post about any actual change or influence on how you play...

Look at my actual play posts for my Prince Valiant and Classic Traveller game.

In the latter in particular you'll see me developing both my PbtA-ish techniques (I've never GMed a PbtA game - Classic Traveller is as close as I've come) and also my use of notes and approach to "exploration"-oriented play.

 

[Fenris-77]

Look at my actual play posts for my Prince Valiant and Classic Traveller game.

In the latter in particular you'll see me developing both my PbtA-ish techniques (I've never GMed a PbtA game - Classic Traveller is as close as I've come) and also my use of notes and approach to "exploration"-oriented play.

Interestingly, while I have GMed PbtA I find myself using some of those techniques in just about any game I GM. I think it's got to do with the clarity with which some of those techniques and precepts there [are presented].

 

[pemerton]

Maybe a somewhat more neutral phrasing would be "playing to discover the GM's world/setting." At least that allows for the possibility that the GM might be discovering (OK, more probably realizing) things about the world about the same time the players are.

See, this is where I get stuck. The world doesn't exist, so how is the GM discovering or realising things about it?

This is possible in mathematics - ie 2+2 = 4 even if someone hasn't noticed yet.

But how is it possible to discover that Elminster is wearing red rather than blue stockings other than by having someone make that up?

One of the reasons we find it insulting as a descriptor is because of how in a curate it seems. So it’s the persistence of using an inaccurate label that provoked the reaction. The reason it is inaccurate is it is not just about notes or just about what is in the GMs mind, it is about being oriented towards and open to all the stuff happening at the table in the setting the notes and GMs mind are meant to model. And there is a focus, even on the part of the GM on acting through characters, driving the game forward through what characters choose to do

Again, this is where I get stuck. There is nothing that is being modelled. Not in any literal sense. When the player says I check out Elminster's legs. What colour are his stockings? the GM isn't deriving an answer from a model in the way that a weather forecaster might try to. The GM is making a decision.

This seems to be a sticking point. As far as I can tell, you seem unwilling to discuss play from the starting point that someone has to make up the imaginary stuff.

 

[pemerton]

To me, the "discovering the GM's notes" sounds ... more like reading a book.

I don't see why.

I've often posted that one important aspect of RPGing is that players declare actions for their PCs that oblige the GM to narrate more stuff. What do we see? is a paradigm example but there are many others.

That is very different from reading a book, but it is still playing to discover the GM's conception of the fiction.