What is the point of GM's notes?

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
Well, all that wonderful hyperbole aside, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the nature of your contributions to the thread. If you'd been obviously just talking about your own experience we wouldn't be where we are. Anyway, this horse is dead, moving on...
 

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Emerikol

Adventurer
Well, all that wonderful hyperbole aside, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the nature of your contributions to the thread. If you'd been obviously just talking about your own experience we wouldn't be where we are. Anyway, this horse is dead, moving on...
Or you had bothered to read what I right instead of assuming what I was thinking.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
When you say that my own opinion that X is not immersive is wrong then you are denying my perspective and experience.
You have no experience with X, how would you know?

Further, this is eliding that you think that X will probably not be immersive for you, but what you say is X is not immersive, and then go on to claim that counters are attacking your opinions.
This is where you are dead wrong. My approach gives me X and I can't get it playing the other ways. At least where X is immersive, a feeling of verisimilitude. It is ridiculous that you are denying how I feel about something. A person who is not immersed due to X where X is absolutely anything in the universe is someone who is not immersed due to X. Immersion is a personal thing. You can't seem to get that.
You actually have no idea about that, do you, because you haven't tried other ways. And that's 100% fine, by the way, no requirement to do so, but that makes the true statement really that you're happy with your approach because it gives you what you want, not that this is the only way. You'd get no pushback if you said this, by the way. I'm happy you enjoy gaming.
We aren't debating approaches having merit in general. If people are enjoying an approach then it has merit for THEIR games. That is true of anything. Use what you like and discard what you don't.
Yup, but if you don't have experience you really shouldn't be saying much about other approaches other than you don't have experience with them or that you're happy as is, thank you very much.
I have tried over and over to explain to you WHY I FEEL AS I DO. I am not saying anything about how YOU FEEL AS YOU DO. I have repeated this a lot so you should just repeatedly read the previous sentence until you get it.
The motte, again. Feels. Cool, I'm glad you feel this way. Stick to saying that you're happy with your approach and stop trying to claim that your approach is the only way that the things you state you value are achievable. Especially in terms of asking if other approaches are even RPGs -- a point you've still left out there and not walked back, and are still ignoring, by the way, despite not a single person telling you that you're wrong to enjoy playing your way or suggesting that it's not RPGing. What you should do is then make claims about other games when you lack the experience and knowledge to do so. As I've said, a few times now, some of your claims about other games read as completely ignorant to anyone's that's played them. It's not a good look, and it shows that your arguments about what you feel are limited because you don't have the experience to generalize them. Which is, again, fine, you're not required to get that experience, but then you aren't going to be credible when you make general statements.
 

@hawkeyefan

When Haight was investigating the "site-of-the-murder-scene" haunted Union Hall or dealing with "Ghost Field Manifested Storm" with the child poltergeist who threw the incorporeal ball at your feet and expected you to "play with him", how did you (the person playing) feel (because so much focus has been put on "feel") and why? However you felt, it certainly wasn't due to some elaborate, purple prose-ey exposition dump on my end.

@Fenris-77

How did you feel beholding this from afar?

I'd be curious to hear the answers framed by (a) stance, (b) situation framing, (c) mechanics (all of it including potential action resolution fallout and snowballing in a direction different from where it went in our game), and (d) "<adjectives> world." If you had to guess why you guys felt way x and why someone else (like @Emerikol ) might feel way y about these moments, what would you attribute that to (with respect to the above)?

EDIT - If its not clear what this is for, I'm looking for (a) first hand anecdote regarding "feels" and (b) steelmanning someone who might feel differently (and why they might).
 
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Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
Or you had bothered to read what I right instead of assuming what I was thinking.
If it makes you feel better to think that it's a reading comprehension issue, awesome. It isn't, but whatever floats your boat. For the record, I haven't disagreed with everything you've said by any stretch, just your characterization of games and approaches you've plainly never played. I'm certainly not telling you what to think or enjoy, or that what you do enjoy is badwrongfun.
 

innerdude

Legend
Agree.

My goal as GM is to simulate a world in a neutral and fair way. The players then interact with that world in the same way we interact with our real world. To the degree, I can provide that sort of experience in an imaginary fantasy world, I consider myself a success.

The big problem for me is what I've bolded in the snippet above---namely, it's almost impossible for me as a GM, even with the absolute best intentions, to remain fully neutral/impartial/fair within all of the parameters available. Whether it be scene framing, adjudicating action, prefabrication of world elements, challenge and combat encounter creation, etc., I always find that inevitably some sort of bias creeps into my decisions.

Most of the time, that bias is in favor of the players, but sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's stuff that I just think, "Man, I really really really want the players to see or experience X, because that would be sooooo cool!"

And suddenly that desire to have the player experience X becomes this hidden seed that pushes the action.



For example if you say "What do I see", the GM isn't responding based on their prior conception of the fiction. That isn't how we conceive of play at all. It is not this unfolding fiction that is happening that gets built up in binary exchanges of players say X, GM decides. There is that component of the GM making his decision. But you are ignoring things like players can make a case outside character for things, and the GM will often be considering their words. It isn't as simple as "I decide". My answer needs to make sense too. And most GMs I have played with, will allow back and forth, where players often explain hwy they think something ought to be present. The players don't have direct power, but they have the tools of persuasion (expected to be used in good faith, not to advance their character's interest) to help smooth out this process. In a typical sandbox the GM is making his decision not based on the prior fiction, but based on the world, the ongoing situations in that world, and what has just previously occurred (I think this is a much better term than the fiction, because the fiction seems to sidestep or minimize the role of the world).

The bolded part here is the problematic component. You keep talking about "the world" as if it operates in some wholly independent sphere of the shared fiction, as if it is possessed of some immutable, objective properties of existence separate from other components of the imagined fiction.

This is the whole crux of the argument around how and what player-facing game mechanics are designed to address---that there is no "world," there are only conceptions of the fiction in question. Saying that it's all part of the grand, overarching "natural, simulated world" doesn't give those conceptions any additional weight or gravitas.

Honestly, this was one of, if not the biggest mental hurdle for me to get over in regards to knowing how to approach player facing mechanics. Because the "game world" simply had to be this independent construction, operating under its own parameters. How else could anyone know anything about anything if there wasn't an assumed, "fully realized" game world?

Until it finally clicked that there is no "world," there are only conceptions of the fiction. Any given conception exists in one of two states---1) something that is already established as true within the fiction state, and 2) things that are proposed to be true, but not yet known to be true (and potentially may end up being false).

By default, D&D assumes that a GM's notes / prefabrications / headcanon are conceptions that fall into Category 1 --- "Something already established as true within the fiction," until/unless the GM deems otherwise. The fact that the players don't know about the overwhelming majority of prefabricated "truths" is irrelevant, they're still considered "truth" for the fiction.

Category 2 conceptions are generally propositions from the players---"I kill the orc." This isn't known to be true until the game plays out, and the fiction state resolves. It may end up being true---and may end up being false, if the player's dice perform badly, or some other interposition happens first (e.g., the orc successfully runs away or the character trips and falls down).

Category 2 conceptions/propositions can be negated. For example, a player can say something as simple as, "Bob the Fighter walks across the room to head toward NotBob the Vile's private dining area." But this can be rendered untrue in any number of ways, e.g.:

Player 2: Joe the Wizard grabs Bob the Fighter's arm as soon as he stands up. [in character] 'I don't think you want to mess with NotBob right now, friend. He'll probably kill you.'

Or,

GM: You go to walk across the room, but the barmaid slips, crashes a tray of empty flagons to the floor, and falls into your arms in disheveled confusion.

In both cases, Bob the Fighter has not, in fact, walked across the room to NotBob's private dining area. At least not until the interposed propositions are either accepted or rejected as truth.

RPG gameplay is really nothing more than Category 2 conceptions/propositions steadily moving to Category 1---it was unknown if the conception is true, and now it is known to be true or not.



To take another example, if the players go to the head of phoenix moon gang and ask for her help finding the disappeared daughter of a local magistrate, the GM is going to respond, not decide, but respond, based on what the players say, what the leader's motivations are, weighing any rolls they might make, who the player characters are, etc. What the players say here could be very important. Then he might declare what the leader says or does, and even then he isn't often simply deciding.

The bolded portion of your quote cannot logically follow from the sentences that precede it. A response is necessarily a decision.
 

Arilyn

Hero
I think there might be some confusion over the playstyles because of GMs who don't prep for a game that requires it. Most of us have probably had the experience of an unprepared GM floundering around trying to improvise games, but still wearing the hat of "traditional" GM. These games do feel surreal and shallow. Games that are built to accommodate minimal/no prep have structures in place. And these games work. Might not be everyone's preferred style, but they work.
 

I think there might be some confusion over the playstyles because of GMs who don't prep for a game that requires it. Most of us have probably had the experience of an unprepared GM floundering around trying to improvise games, but still wearing the hat of "traditional" GM. These games do feel surreal and shallow. Games that are built to accommodate minimal/no prep have structures in place. And these games work. Might not be everyone's preferred style, but they work.

And I thinks its instructive to note how significant differences in (a) ethos (GM mandate vs GM constraint via encoded principles), (b) GM-vs-table-facing-machinery (codified and table-facing action resolution vs GM-facing mediated action resolution via judgement and feel), and (c) integration (holistic design vs modular design) affect the formulation of these kinds of games.

I've seen 5e heralded as unstructured free form in the way that PBtA games are. I've seen them run like that (Mercer does this).

But the difference between what Mercer is doing in the 5e Critical Role series (and GMs who run 5e like this), what I'm doing in DW/AW, and the experience of the participants at the table (including the GM) is MASSIVE (precisely because of the extreme differences between a - c cited above; its GM mandate + GM-facing mediated action resolution via judgement and feel + modular design vs DW being the opposite in all ways). People have used "loosey-goosey" to describe this sort of play in 5e and I agree with that. My DW/AW games are anything but "loosey-goosey", though they are 90 % improv.
 
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Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
@hawkeyefan

When Haight was investigating the "site-of-the-murder-scene" haunted Union Hall or dealing with "Ghost Field Manifested Storm" with the child poltergeist who threw the incorporeal ball at your feet and expected you to "play with him", how did you (the person playing) feel (because so much focus has been put on "feel") and why? However you felt, it certainly wasn't due to some elaborate, purple prose-ey exposition dump on my end.

@Fenris-77

How did you feel beholding this from afar?

I'd be curious to hear the answers framed by (a) stance, (b) situation framing, (c) mechanics (all of it including potential action resolution fallout and snowballing in a direction different from where it went in our game), and (d) "<adjectives> world." If you had to guess why you guys felt way x and why someone else (like @Emerikol ) might feel way y about these moments, what would you attribute that to (with respect to the above)?
One of the beauties of playing a game like Blades, with all it's authorial permissions, is when you're playing it with a group of likeminded and engaged players (that includes the GM). So this scene above developed out of the snowball of our player decisions and the consequences thereof not just from the session in question, but from several previous sessions. This is true of idea level content, but also in the mechanical decisions we made as players, fully aware of what the fallout could be for failure or complication. Throughout those sessions, both @hawkeyefan and I made strong authorial contributions to the game, both in and out of character. The framing of our Blades game is strongly recursive, by which I mean that the ideas bounce back and forth across the table at high speed with everyone bumping and setting ideas and consequences like pros. That gets back to @Manbearcat who does the actual scene framing, and the result is an encounter that is strongly welded to the characters involved, which in turn leads to player investment and, dare I say it, even immersion. So even as the non-present observer in this scene I found it enormously engaging and immersive, aided by the fact that I was peripherally involved of course, from a distance.

The kind of immersion and engagement I'm describing here is different from the kind you get in a GM notes game. Not better, or worse, just different. There's a stronger connection directly to the mechanics of the game and player decision making, where in, say, D&D or OSR play the connection tends to be to the GMs adjudication rather than actual mechanics, which feels different in play. Both are good of course, they just play to different kinds of player engagement and expectations. I can't imagine anyone playing the series of session in question and not enjoying themselves immensely, but with different expectations and play priorities I'm sure it's possible.

As for why someone might not enjoy it, several possibilities occur to me. Some players are uncomfortable with the idea of playing outside their character, which is fine and very common, but it doesn't produce the play I describe above. Some players are also not comfortable being as active as hawkeyefan and I are as players - there's no room for sitting back and enjoying the ride in Blades, it's hands on the wheel at all times. Beyond this, Blades puts a lot more of of the responsibility for consequences on the players because those consequences are often player facing, and not everyone is comfortable with that level of responsibility. I've termed this in positive terms on the Blades side, but I want to be clear that not wanting any of the above things isn't bad, weak, wrong or anything else negative.
 

One of the beauties of playing a game like Blades, with all it's authorial permissions, is when you're playing it with a group of likeminded and engaged players (that includes the GM). So this scene above developed out of the snowball of our player decisions and the consequences thereof not just from the session in question, but from several previous sessions. This is true of idea level content, but also in the mechanical decisions we made as players, fully aware of what the fallout could be for failure or complication. Throughout those sessions, both @hawkeyefan and I made strong authorial contributions to the game, both in and out of character. The framing of our Blades game is strongly recursive, by which I mean that the ideas bounce back and forth across the table at high speed with everyone bumping and setting ideas and consequences like pros. That gets back to @Manbearcat who does the actual scene framing, and the result is an encounter that is strongly welded to the characters involved, which in turn leads to player investment and, dare I say it, even immersion. So even as the non-present observer in this scene I found it enormously engaging and immersive, aided by the fact that I was peripherally involved of course, from a distance.

The kind of immersion and engagement I'm describing here is different from the kind you get in a GM notes game. Not better, or worse, just different. There's a stronger connection directly to the mechanics of the game and player decision making, where in, say, D&D or OSR play the connection tends to be to the GMs adjudication rather than actual mechanics, which feels different in play. Both are good of course, they just play to different kinds of player engagement and expectations. I can't imagine anyone playing the series of session in question and not enjoying themselves immensely, but with different expectations and play priorities I'm sure it's possible.

As for why someone might not enjoy it, several possibilities occur to me. Some players are uncomfortable with the idea of playing outside their character, which is fine and very common, but it doesn't produce the play I describe above. Some players are also not comfortable being as active as hawkeyefan and I are as players - there's no room for sitting back and enjoying the ride in Blades, it's hands on the wheel at all times. Beyond this, Blades puts a lot more of of the responsibility for consequences on the players because those consequences are often player facing, and not everyone is comfortable with that level of responsibility. I've termed this in positive terms on the Blades side, but I want to be clear that not wanting any of the above things isn't bad, weak, wrong or anything else negative.

That all makes sense.

Let me ask you something (and this may seem like an odd question from viewers afar) - disconnected from player input and the table-facing dynamics which you went through above.

There is a lot of celebration of both elaborate world-building and theatricality + heavy exposition dumps in D&D culture and feel/immersion being downstream of that. If my GMing style was extremely theatrical with elaborate exposition dumps, would that have enhanced or detracted from all the things you mentioned above? What I'm asking is "does GMing with theatrical and elaborate exposition dumps vs pithy (both in terms of theatrics and word count) and provocative framing" have impact on (a) play broadly and (b) this kind of play specifically?

And how would players who are used to (and feel they are moved/compelled by) GMing with theatrical and elaborate exposition dumps in their framing feel about the different kind of framing that we're discussing here?
 

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