What is the point of GM's notes?

[Bedrockgames]

Oh, I totally agree. But, I'd like to take a moment to ask you about your living world. A lot of gamers understand this to be a planet that is alive, and that raises questions of what it eats and breathes. Can you expand on how your living planet works? And why did you choose a planet that is alive from, say, a flat rock held up by four elephants standing on the back of a turtle?

It subsists on a diet of player characters mostly.

I am not saying living world is a perfect term: it is the term that gained currency among many sandboxers to describe an approach to the setting and its inhabitants. But it doesn’t describe a rudimentary component of play across style: the fiction does.

 

[Bedrockgames]

If I'm understanding you correctly, the definition should reflect the processes that make what makes x's living world different to y's dynamic setting different to z's world in motion. Right?

Those all basically are synonyms for the same concept.

 

[Emerikol]

Sure, this is one of the appeals of skilled play. And I don't think this kind of play is specific to old school dungeon delve type scenarios....I imagine a lot of the sandbox play style that's been advocated for in this thread would also yield this kind of result.

I would say there is a huge overlap between the living world, skilled play, heavy prep crowd. Not an absolute overlap but an overlap.

I have no doubt you have years of experience with D&D and similar games based on your statements and your choice in avatar!

But what about with games that play differently than D&D?

That is a good point. I've read a lot of different games but I have tried playing a Story Now game. I just now willing to invest in a campaign to play something that doesn't really seem my cup of tea. I do think I understand the game and I can see where some people might enjoy it. It's a big paradigm shift from traditional D&D, heck even roleplaying.

I'm a rules collector so I own all sorts of games I don't play. I'm keeping some of these small outfits in business I think. ;-).

Sure, this is all I mean.....it's all a matter of preference.

We definitely agree on this point.

No, it's not a rule. I suppose I would say it's more of a fact? I mean, if you design a dungeon....let's call it the Maze of Madness.....and plan to introduce it into your campaign, it's an idea, right? It's fiction that you've created. You may think of it as part of the game, and I absolutely understand why.

But.....if you got hit by a bus before the Maze of Madness was introduced, or if one of your players said offhandedly "man, I really wish we cuold do something besides delve into dungeons" and so you ditch the Maze of Madness, or any number of other things......then is it part of the fiction of that game? No, it's not.

If we think of the game as a shared thing, then it's only the things that are shared that are actually part of the fiction. Until then, anything else is just possibility.

I think here is where "the fiction" and the "living breathing world" part ways. The living breathing world includes all the off camera people, places, and events. Some of which could affect the PCs overtly, some in subtle ways and others not at all. We view this living breathing world as a thing apart from what you are calling the fiction. Now you've defined the term "the fiction" so you are right by your definition. To me the campaign setting is an entity apart from just what happens during the session.

Those of us who think as I do believe these non-fiction parts of the campaign setting, the living world, ultimately make the fiction better. The GM would be the conduit for why it's better. For the same reason an author knowing her world really really well far beyond what she reveals to the reader, is a better author. The touches of verisimilitude come more easily from a wealth of knowledge. At least that is my take.

I see the Story Now crowd not even having the same objective. They aren't trying to achieve what I am trying to achieve in my games. The joy for them is the organic evolution of the story where even the GM is learning about the world. They like that and that is why they like those games. At least that is my take.

 

[Ovinomancer]

It subsists on a diet of player characters mostly.

I am not saying living world is a perfect term: it is the term that gained currency among many sandboxers to describe an approach to the setting and its inhabitants. But it doesn’t describe a rudimentary component of play across style: the fiction does.

That doesn't really matter, though, because many gamers are going to immediate think that it's talking about a planet or planetoid that is alive. This kind of ambiguity is going to really cause problems for a lot of people, especially people that have had any amount of exposure to planetary sciences -- like most 1st graders. I don't think we can avoid this problem of "living world" being easily mistaken for a planet (or planetoid) that is alive and the questions that raises. It makes it very difficult to discuss this topic because of the immediate equivocation that takes place with this term. I really think a better term should be sought, especially if your concept is that the very ground eats the PCs when hungry (odd choice for an RPG, but it takes all kinds -- also sounds a bit fictional to me).

 

[Bedrockgames]

If we think of the game as a shared thing, then it's only the things that are shared that are actually part of the fiction. Until then, anything else is just possibility.

this is one reason why the fiction is a problem as a term: can’t you see how it plays much more strongly into story now rather than sandbox? And it is because the term

 

[Bedrockgames]

That doesn't really matter, though, because many gamers are going to immediate think that it's talking about a planet or planetoid that is alive. This kind of ambiguity is going to really cause problems for a lot of people, especially people that have had any amount of exposure to planetary sciences -- like most 1st graders. I don't think we can avoid this problem of "living world" being easily mistaken for a planet (or planetoid) that is alive and the questions that raises. It makes it very difficult to discuss this topic because of the immediate equivocation that takes place with this term. I really think a better term should be sought, especially if your concept is that the very ground eats the PCs when hungry (odd choice for an RPG, but it takes all kinds -- also sounds a bit fictional to me).

again taking an absurd example of equivocation to counter a perfectly common and reasonable one, not very persuasive I think

 

[prabe]

Makes mental note never to argue definitions with @Aldarc ;-)

 

[prabe]

If we think of the game as a shared thing, then it's only the things that are shared that are actually part of the fiction. Until then, anything else is just possibility.

this is one reason why the fiction is a problem as a term: can’t you see how it plays much more strongly into story now rather than sandbox? And it is because the term

Sorry, what? You're objecting to the idea that something in your notes might not exist in the game-world because you haven't haven't established in-game that it does? You really think you can blame the word fiction for that? Or are you objecting to the idea that something that hasn't arisen in play hasn't been established.

I suppose you could consider "it's in my notes" as a subset of "it's been established in play." It's consistent with my understanding of sandbox play ideals. If you have a better idea for a place no PCs have been, do you change your notes?

 

[AnotherGuy]

No, just explain what/how it works in play. Don't really care what it's called, I'd like to hear what it is that is done at the table to make it work.

As the risk of being laconic: GM decides based on a number of factors (bias, tables, extrapolations...etc)

 

[Ovinomancer]

again taking an absurd example of equivocation to counter a perfectly common and reasonable one, not very persuasive I think

Oh, I agree. The bits about "fiction" are quite silly. But let's discuss more about the "living world" and how it eats PCs. What does it breath, and how does it survive the cold vacuum of space?

I'd ask about reproduction, but that's probably not Grandma friendly.