D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[Mind of tempest]

This is where I am at in the whole psionic debate. I would prefer something more than a sorcerer subclass and being forcefully told - if not shouted at - in this thread that it's the best option. (I disagree that it is.) I would want a new class that is built from the ground up with a psionic theme in mind, where the whole aberration theme is optional or part of a subclass. It would not be difficult from there to add 1/4th psionic casters as subclasses to other classes from there.

I would personally prefer that the Psion/Psychic used Wisdom rather than either Intelligence or Charisma (we have enough of those), as I believe that Wisdom better represents the Extrasensory Perception, Intuition, and Mysticism aspects of Psionics/Psychics.

I could see wisdom or intellect but charisma is just wrong for it.

There are two separate things here and I for one am only objecting to one of them:

• A new psychic base class
• A Psion

I have never said that a new psychic base class is a bad idea in and of itself a bad idea. It's when people start saying they want a Psion that I object because the Psion is something that already existed in 2e, 3.0, and 3.5 and calling on one is calling back there.

ah I see we are arguing over terms, the other side uses the psion as just a name over a clear set definition of the psychic class.

But what is the playstyle? We already have two low HP unarmoured casters who hang in the backlines and sling slotted spells at people. What does this new psychic class do other than say "Hi! Look at me! Aren't I special because I'm a psychic class slinging psychic spells not a sorcerer slinging psychic spells?"?

And this is why I brought up the Mystic as a vast improvement.

I say we move it towards the cleric slot as a secular healer who does not have the "baggage" bard would certainly be useful

 

[Kaiyanwang]

Firstly did you ever work out how the Psion got 343 power points? Because I did. They turned the number of spells a wizard would have from slots into points and got to 343.

Yes, this was indeed known back then. But we both agree I think that the flexibility is a thing, so is the augmenting mechanic.
What you call "cash grabs" were more spells that the designer, right or wrong, assessed as required for a basic caster functionality. The 3.5 Psion is full of unique powers, there is enough room to play differently.
On a "meta" level, they also have less general choice so the Wizard is still on top I think.

 

[steeldragons]

Mages - Arcane Magic Full Caster. Limitless Cantrips. Limitless Rituals. Leveled Spell Progression to top tier of 9. Arcane Magic Spell list.
Swordmage (better name needed) - Arcane Magic Half-caster. Limitless Cantrips. Limited Rituals known/progression. Leveled Spell Progression, slower than the Mage, to top tier of 5. Swordmage spell list.

Clerics - Divine Magic Full Caster. Channel magic effects at level 1. No Cantrips. Limitless Rituals at level 1. Level Spell Progression, beginning at 3rd level, to top tier of 9. Divine Magic Spell list.
Paladin - Divine Magic Half-caster. Channels magic effects ar level 1. No Cantrips. Limited Rituals known/progression. Level Spell Progression, slower than the Cleric, to top tier of 5. Paladin spell list.

Druid - Nature Magic Full Caster. Channels magic effects at level 1. Limited Cantrips known. Limitless Rituals. Leveled Spell Progression, beginning at 3rd level, to top tier of 9. Nature Magic spell list.
Bard - Nature Magic Half-caster. Channels magic effects at level 1. Limited Cantrips known (limitless use). Limited Rituals known/progression. Leveled Spell Progression, beginning at level 3, to top tier of 5. Bardic Magic spell list.

Witch - Occult Power (multi-source) Full Caster. Limitless Cantrips. Limitless rituals. Level Spell Progression to top tier of 9. Access to Multiple Spell Lists and Occult Powers ("Witch's Crafts") list.
Warlock - Occult Power (multi-source) Half-caster/Arcane Channeler. Limited Cantrips known (limitless use). Channel magic effects at level 1. Limited Rituals known/progression. Level Spell Progression to top tier of 5 and Occult Powers ("Invocations") list.

Psychic - Psychic Power Full "caster"/Psychic "Channeler." Limited "Cantrips" known (limitless use). Limitless Base Power use. Limited Rituals known/progression. Level Powers Progression, beginning at level 3, to top tier of 9. Discipline Powers list.
Psy-Warrior (better name needed)- Psychic Power Half-"caster." Limtied "Cantrips" known (limitless use). Limited Rituals known/progression. Level powers Progression beginning at level 1, to top tier of 5. Discipline Powers list.

Seems like enough magicky using classes. Ten? Yeah, that's enough.

NOW, who wants to work on ten "martial/mundane/non-magic" classes, to balance out the game options for the players who don't want "magic" characters, with their own separate special "things" and progressions, and archetypes differentiated with story and individual mechanics/"features/bonus: stuff" lists? ;P

 

[Celebrim]

I briefly mentioned my choices. Let me explain them.

Martial Classes
Fighter - Base class of the game. Combatants defined by their traditional martial expertise. Experts in weapons, armor, tactics, combat leadership, marching, running, discipline and fortitude, carrying things, and generally everything that goes into an ideal warrior. Incidentally, a monk is just a fighter with a particular focus on say unarmed and unarmored combat and self-discipline - "martial artist" is a big clue there.
Fanatic - Combatants that channel their emotional energy (often fury) to transcend normal human limits. Why not barbarian? Because barbarian has too much unneeded baggage for a base class. A raging berserker from a primitive northern tribal society is just one type of fanatic. You can think of "barbarian" as a fanatic subclass if you will that has some extra wilderness knowledge. If you play DBM this is warbands as opposed to swordsman.
Explorer - The jack of all trades of martial classes. Martial skill monkeys with advantages in movement, navigation, survival, social interaction, use of beasts and vehicles, improvised weapons, and really anything they want to get good at. Mine are particularly good at using a weapon in each hand because they started out as a "sailor/mariner" class. Generic adventurer class.
Hunter - Assassins, slayers, hunters and killers that specialize in destroying particular foes. Experts in tracking, ranged combat, critical hits, and inflicting massive damage even against targets that are normally resistant to damage (such as undead, constructs, oozes) using knowledge of esoteric techniques and weapon preparation. Why not the Ranger? Well, because like Barbarian, ranger just carries too much baggage. Not every hunter is proficient in wilderness lore, good aligned, and dabbles in magic. That's a very specific build.

All martials are heavily customizable by mix and match feat selection. In fact, you can think of these all as good attack bonuses, good hit points, and lots of bonus feats. Multiclassing between them is pretty easy to get the blend of skills you want.

Skill Classes
Rogue - 3e IMO actually got the rogue pretty solid overall. You could make an argument it shouldn't exist, but I think that there is enough history behind it to justify it despite the objections to "sneak attack" as a combat schtick.
Paragon - The class for characters that aren't obviously skillful in anything but seem to always be lucky. Fortunate or blessed characters, prodigies and naturally gifted individuals. If in a story the character doesn't seem nearly as powerful as the other characters but is always saving the day anyway because things just work out for them, they are probably a paragon.
Expert - ??? I feel there is a missing class her of just generically knowledgeable. "Sherlock Holmes" is I think the archetype, but you could also make the case for Dr. Who and many others. The problem is despite lots of trying and lots of ideas, I can't make this class work in a D&D framework because it's hard to give them a schtick at combat that works at tier 3 or 4 and is unique to them. I feel like it would need to be "tricky stunts" but that's such a situational schtick that depends so much on the environment that it's hard to make it really reliable. Design in progress.

Full Spell Casters
Wizard - Non-spontaneous arcane caster representing all varieties of caster who master magic through study, mental discipline and self-mastery. Can be diversified by school of magic they specialize in.
Sorcerer - Spontaneous arcane caster representing all varieties of caster whose magical prowess is based on innate gifts or talents. Diversified by "Bloodline", these are the cursed, the gifted, the mutants, and the children of exotic births and parentage.
Cleric - Non-spontaneous divine caster representing servants of divine powers who grant their pious followers spells to further the divine's wishes in the moral realm. Polytheism and formalize religion. Diversified by the domains of the deities they serve.
Shaman - Spontaneous divine caster representing natural casters who receive their powers by bargaining with, intimidating, or binding spirits to their will using their esoteric knowledge of the spiritual world. Animism and informal religion. All witches, druids, warlocks, pact binders and the like are shamans or multi-classed shaman/arcane casters. Diversified by the totems they select which correspond functionally to the domain's clerics use.

Half Spell Casters
Champions - Exemplars of virtue, often selected by the gods to be their mortal representatives. Diversified by portfolio according to the gifts given to them. Why not Paladin? Because paladin is just one very narrow type of champion of a particular sort of deity with a particular sort of alignment and portfolio. That Paladin has been broken as a class has been known as long as the existence of "anti-Paladins".
Bards - Arcane caster jack of all trades. Personally, don't think I'd keep them and rarely see players play them, but they have so much history in the game at this point and enough of their own schtick that I don't feel I can leave them out.

That's 12 (13 if you count the unrealized Expert). That's plenty for core classes. Anything narrower than the above is probably either a build of the above, a multiclass combination of the above, or specific to a particular setting.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I would have been happy with a fairly straightforward conversion of the 3.5 psion. Start with the wizard chassis, give them spell points equivalent to slots, tailor the list to psychic spells and give them a no component variant in casting them.

Which is precisely what the Aberrant Mind does. And I mean precisely. It starts with the sorcerer chassis, gives them spell points which they can drop their slots in, tailors their list to psychic spells, and gives them a no-component variant in casting them.

The Aberrant Mind completely nails everything you have said you want to do.

Not unlike what the artificer did.

And if that had been all the 5e Artificer did it would simply have been laughed out of the room. It then has its own Infusions system.

Yes it would not have changed the game fundamentally nor would it be the radical psionics system some wanted, but it would be a good compromise between reinventing the wheel and pretending a sorcerer is a psionic.

This isn't "pretending a sorcerer is a psionic". Most sorcerers aren't psionic ... but the Aberrant Mind is. Most sorcerers aren't divine casters ... but the Divine Soul Sorcerer is. Do you also object to that existing? For that matter most fighters aren't arcane casters ... but the Eldritch Knight is.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I could see wisdom or intellect but charisma is just wrong for it.

Charisma is the mental force stat. It should be the first choice.

ah I see we are arguing over terms, the other side uses the psion as just a name over a clear set definition of the psychic class.

There are people who use Psion as a placeholder class and people who use Psion to refer to the 3.5 (and 2e; no one mentions 3.0) class. Sides are rarely unified.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yes, this was indeed known back then. But we both agree I think that the flexibility is a thing, so is the augmenting mechanic.

Yes. However that augmenting mechanic is a part of the thing that has now become core to all spellcasters. If you look at 5e spells they often have an at higher levels entry - which is basically the old augmenting mechanic where you can cast a spell with the cost for a higher level spell for more effects, and it's written into the spell.

This is one of the reasons I say that 5e casters cast more like 3.5 psionicists than normal 3.5 casters.

What you call "cash grabs" were more spells that the designer, right or wrong, assessed as required for a basic caster functionality.

Because of course "basic caster functionality" includes teleportation circles and sequestering. But on the flipside each of these spells takes space to be reprinted and some of them had minor tweaks.

The 3.5 Psion is full of unique powers, there is enough room to play differently.

In the way that two sorcerers who know different spells do yes. But they are still just sorcerers with different spells known. And copying spells and finding and replacing caster level with Manifester level doesn't do very much.

On a "meta" level, they also have less general choice so the Wizard is still on top I think.

The company is called Wizards of the Coast...

 

[jmartkdr2]

So everyone

Is the Duelist/Swashbuckler it's own D&D class?

1. Add INT (3e and 4e) or CHA (4e and 5e) to unarmored or light armor AC
2. Deals bonus damage with finesse or light weapons
3. Proficiency (and later Expertise) in STR, DEX, and CHA skills
4. Anti-opputunity attack class features
5. High Initiative

It could be, but only if we're breaking up fighter and rogue into several classes. Swash fits nicely in the middle of those, being a dex/cha primary class. It would probably use superiority dice (as would a more str-focused warblade.)

Dex/int would be more like a skill-based rogue, including subclasses like thief, acrobat, inquisitive, and mastermind. (And probably arcane trickster)

Then add in assassin (rogue but all about sneak attack, subclasses are about magic or poison and/or oath) and Swordmage (which gobbles up all the other gish concepts like hexblade and bladesinger) and we're in a much better spot IMO.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Charisma is the mental force stat. It should be the first choice.

There are people who use Psion as a placeholder class and people who use Psion to refer to the 3.5 (and 2e; no one mentions 3.0) class. Sides are rarely unified.

cha being will is one of those things I will never grasp.

true sides are rarely unified but the question is should there be such a class of psychic casters which is the point.

I briefly mentioned my choices. Let me explain them.
Incidentally, a monk is just a fighter with a particular focus on say unarmed and unarmored combat and self-discipline - "martial artist" is a big clue there.
Fanatic - Combatants that channel their emotional energy (often fury) to transcend normal human limits. Why not barbarian? Because barbarian has too much unneeded baggage for a base class. A raging berserker from a primitive northern tribal society is just one type of fanatic. You can think of "barbarian" as a fanatic subclass if you will that has some extra wilderness knowledge. If you play DBM this is warbands as opposed to swordsman.

Hunter - Assassins, slayers, hunters and killers that specialize in destroying particular foes. Experts in tracking, ranged combat, critical hits, and inflicting massive damage even against targets that are normally resistant to damage (such as undead, constructs, oozes) using knowledge of esoteric techniques and weapon preparation. Why not the Ranger? Well, because like Barbarian, ranger just carries too much baggage. Not every hunter is proficient in wilderness lore, good aligned, and dabbles in magic. That's a very specific build.

you seem to be lost on what the monk is mimicking but your hunter and fanatic seem to be fairly well-built ideas, I would like to see where they can go.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Charisma is the mental force stat. It should be the first choice.

CHA is force of personality, INT is your brainpower, and psions and psychics don't fuel their powers by being charming