D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[Neonchameleon]

The Psion was created in 2E to give a home to all those random pre-existing psionic powers. Regardless though, we are talking old enough that the Illusionist was around, as in the completely seperate spellcaster who wasn't a wizard at the time

The Illusionist wasn't a completely separate spellcaster in 2e. To quote "The illusionist is an example of a specialist." They were just specialist wizards in 2e rather than having entirely different spell lists in 1e.

Soulknives and psi warriors are failing to live up to what people are wanting fully from psions.

They are however psychic. And work. The psion sucks up the air in the room. The Aberrant Mind however does just about everything the Psion did other than splurges 70 pages of custom spells onto the system.

Its that simple. Aberrant Mind also does that because while "Embrace your heritage and break the boundaries of your flesh" is a very neat capstone, isn't exaxctly anything to do with being psychic

So ... psychics never transcend their flesh in fiction? They never ascend in any way? Right. And let's look at what those possibilities of Revelation In Flesh actually are rather than a summary of the fluff - and remember you don't actually have to use them.

• You can see invisible creatures. Something no psychic should be able to do ever. (This is honestly far weaker than it should be)
• You can fly easily and reliably (and without concentrating) but your body shines or you gain an aura as you do so. Something that e.g. Jean Grey (or any other telekinetic) has never done in the history of ever
• You can swim and breathe underwater and have some mechanism to gather the oxygen from the water. I mean that's much more rarely a thing but I can't think of any time e.g. Phoenix went underwater and came back up. Oh, wait.
• You can squeeze through gaps and escape grabs - the only tenticular option here

So you are literally objecting to there being a niche ability to spend a power point to warp your flesh. At level 14. Unless you think that very powerful psychics shouldn't be able to see invisible creatures, fly easily using their telekinesis, or fly underwater and handle breathing as they do so.

For that matter the ability you are objecting to literally gives high level psychics the ability to fly easily at the cost of a mere single power point and without using concentration. That's the sort of revelation it is. And yet it is this ability that somehow causes people to think it's the worst possibility ever.

If you don't like the most niche of one of the options at a certain level you don't have to use it.

and instead everything to do with one of your ancestors being a bit too into tentacle monsters

And now you're revealing you don't actually either know or care about sorcerer lore in 5e. Bloodlines are a Pathfinder sorcerer thing not a D&D thing. There's a reason it's the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer not the Aberrant Bloodline Sorcerer which appears in Pathfinder 1e.

 

[Mecheon]

The Illusionist wasn't a completely separate spellcaster in 2e. To quote "The illusionist is an example of a specialist." They were just specialist wizards in 2e rather than having entirely different spell lists in 1e.

How popular was that back in the day? I know 1E to 2E had its drama in Dragon Magazine and I do recall a bunch of illusionist players complaining their class and playstyle got cheated away

They are however psychic. And work. The psion sucks up the air in the room. The Aberrant Mind however does just about everything the Psion did other than splurges 70 pages of custom spells onto the system.

People want the psionic mechanics expanded into a class of its own, just like how other classes borrow from the wizard or cleric. Plus, like... What, they can't have pages of spells while the cleric and wizard get their whole lions share? Its not like its going to be exclusive just to them

So ... psychics never transcend their flesh in fiction? They never ascend in any way? Right. And let's look at what those possibilities of Revelation In Flesh actually are rather than a summary of the fluff - and remember you don't actually have to use them.

• You can see invisible creatures. Something no psychic should be able to do ever. (This is honestly far weaker than it should be)
• You can fly easily and reliably (and without concentrating) but your body shines or you gain an aura as you do so. Something that e.g. Jean Grey (or any other telekinetic) has never done in the history of ever
• You can swim and breathe underwater and have some mechanism to gather the oxygen from the water. I mean that's much more rarely a thing but I can't think of any time e.g. Phoenix went underwater and came back up. Oh, wait.
• You can squeeze through gaps and escape grabs - the only tenticular option here

So you are literally objecting to there being a niche ability to spend a power point to warp your flesh. At level 14. Unless you think that very powerful psychics shouldn't be able to see invisible creatures, fly easily using their telekinesis, or fly underwater and handle breathing as they do so.

For that matter the ability you are objecting to literally gives high level psychics the ability to fly easily at the cost of a mere single power point and without using concentration. That's the sort of revelation it is. And yet it is this ability that somehow causes people to think it's the worst possibility ever.

If you don't like the most niche of one of the options at a certain level you don't have to use it.

I mean, have you ever seen Professor X do any of those things just off the bat? Its your body transforming in some way, with the stated explanations including failed Illithid-turning, so, its not necessarily psychic. The ability's called Revelations in Flesh which, due to the name alone, gives you an idea what's happening there

And, yeah, the niche ability to do aberrant things makes sense on the Aberrant Mind sorcerer that has half of its explanations tied to various aberration enemies throughout D&D's history. That prevents it being a true psion because, shock and horror, the true psion would have its own set of sub-classes that build off other ideas to do their own thing.

And now you're revealing you don't actually either know or care about sorcerer lore in 5e. Bloodlines are a Pathfinder sorcerer thing not a D&D thing. There's a reason it's the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer not the Aberrant Bloodline Sorcerer which appears in Pathfinder 1e.

?????

5E PHB, page 99
Sorcerers carry a magical birthright conferred upon them by an exotic bloodline, some otherworldly influence, or exposure to unknown cosmic forces.

Yes, 5E sorcerers can have their powers due to bloodlines. Its just not the only option. Plus like.... Y' do know the proper name of Draconic Sorcerer is Draconic Bloodline sorcerer, right? Just everyone shortens it

 

[jdrakeh]

Four. Fighting Man (Person), Cleric, Magic-User, Thief. This is enough to emulate TONS of popular fantasy fiction, both of yesteryear and contemporary stuff. You can always add more in supplements, of course. But I'm in favor of Four Core.

 

[overgeeked]

I'm not really convinced by this because the Paladin is one of the most popular archetypes in a lot of video games. But Paladin's also usually don't make a core trinity of archetypes.

I do think that in this matter a lot of video game designers see things the same way: there is no need for a D&D style heavily armored holy warrior as represented by the Cleric when the Paladin exists as the holy warrior. You certainly have lightly-armored WoW Priests, GW1 Monks, and FF White Mages out there. In Guild Wars 2, I would also note that there are a lot of human priests in the game who venerate the six gods, but they include people of the different classes. There is not one set class for the job.

Exactly. And that’s a problem for D&D. The only difference between a cleric and a paladin is how combat focused they are vs how support/heal focused they are. In a basic three set up, a paladin is a fighter2/mage1 whereas a D&D cleric is a fighter1/mage2. It’s not really a distinction worth making a full class for. Between them, paladin is far more widely known and popular. D&D cleric should be a healing-focused subclass of paladin at best.

 

[Neonchameleon]

How popular was that back in the day? I know 1E to 2E had its drama in Dragon Magazine and I do recall a bunch of illusionist players complaining their class and playstyle got cheated away

Specialist wizards? Extremely.

The way Illusionists were now just specialist wizards? Not very. Their One Unique Thing was their own spell list.

Meanwhile Aberrant Minds have what people talk about as the Psion things - power points, psychic magic, and upcasting. All they lack is the unique Psion spells - but not one single time have I ever seen anyone spontaneously name a specific Psion spell or two as being core to what made psions. There are no iconic or style making spells

People want the psionic mechanics expanded into a class of its own, just like how other classes borrow from the wizard or cleric. Plus, like... What, they can't have pages of spells while the cleric and wizard get their whole lions share? Its not like its going to be exclusive just to them

No we can't have Another Wizard Knock-off. The wizard exists. So does the sorcerer. And the Aberrant Mind uses "psionic mechanics" like power points and if it's the playstyle of the Psion you are interested in the Aberrant Mind nails it.

If they are going to share wizard spells the way sorcerers do then what's the point in them? And if they aren't and you're going to dump other classes onto the game to justify your Psion the way the 3.x sorcerer was dumped on the game to justify wizard spells, no. That shouldn't have happened.

And we've already got the multiclass subclasses with the Soulknife and Psi Warrior. So it won't be them.

You're working with an Artificer amount of space at most. If you make it mystic like it might work. If you try to just be a Psion the Aberrant Mind exists so you're basically adding nothing to the game that isn't there except a calamari-free Aberrant Mind.

I mean, have you ever seen Professor X do any of those things just off the bat?

Use his telekinesis to fly, shimmering with energy as he did because someone broke his chair? Yes. Prof X isn't great at it because his specific issues with his legs translate to general mobility in ways that don't fit D&D rules. And he would be a bad adventurer and unsuitable D&D PC because of it.

See invisible people with telepathy? I don't recall it coming up but he would have if it did.

Move freely underwater? No - mobility is an explicit problem for Professor X. D&D doesn't really do his legs-for-power trade.

Its your body transforming in some way, with the stated explanations including failed Illithid-turning, so, its not necessarily psychic. The ability's called Revelations in Flesh which, due to the name alone, gives you an idea what's happening there

"Not necessarily" = it is if you want it to be.

The fact that your argument is "it doesn't have to be psychic power" is telling. You're trying to make it not work.

And, yeah, the niche ability to do aberrant things makes sense on the Aberrant Mind sorcerer that has half of its explanations tied to various aberration enemies throughout D&D's history. That prevents it being a true psion because, shock and horror, the true psion would have its own set of sub-classes that build off other ideas to do their own thing.

It's a D&D Psion, with explanations tied to D&D psychic lore (like Ilithids and other aberrations). It's not a "true psion" any more than it is a True Scotsman.

And there are already more varied choices than a single psionic class could provide just among primary casters. No one Psion class could cover the Aberrant Mind, the revised GOOlock and the Whispers Bard. So clearly the problem isn't one of variety or flexibility.

Yes, 5E sorcerers can have their powers due to bloodlines. Its just not the only option.

Which means that ancestors doing the nasty with aberrants isn't a necessary part of the class.

Plus like.... Y' do know the proper name of Draconic Sorcerer is Draconic Bloodline sorcerer, right? Just everyone shortens it

Yes. They are a specific thing. And not Aberrant Minds.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Exactly. And that’s a problem for D&D. The only difference between a cleric and a paladin is how combat focused they are vs how support/heal focused they are. In a basic three set up, a paladin is a fighter2/mage1 whereas a D&D cleric is a fighter1/mage2. It’s not really a distinction worth making a full class for. Between them, paladin is far more widely known and popular. D&D cleric should be a healing-focused subclass of paladin at best.

A healing focused subclass of paladin ... and a healing focused subclass of sorcerer and/or warlock.

 

[Mecheon]

No we can't have Another Wizard Knock-off. The wizard exists. So does the sorcerer. And the Aberrant Mind uses "psionic mechanics" like power points and if it's the playstyle of the Psion you are interested in the Aberrant Mind nails it.

If they are going to share wizard spells the way sorcerers do then what's the point in them? And if they aren't and you're going to dump other classes onto the game to justify your Psion the way the 3.x sorcerer was dumped on the game to justify wizard spells, no. That shouldn't have happened.

And we've already got the multiclass subclasses with the Soulknife and Psi Warrior. So it won't be them.

Right, just llike how Battlemaster is totally sufficient for everyone who wants Warlord and we haven't had countless threads about folks wanting a warlord

Let me put this simply: I don't want the tiny side-dish, I want the full course meal where things get their proper showing, and based on how popular 3rd party additional classes are just on the psion theme, I'm not the only one who thinks the current showing is a nice starting point but not enough.

Bladesinger and Eldritch Knight work completely differently despite at their heart being "Wizard and Fighter share components" each way

"Not necessarily" = it is if you want it to be.

The fact that your argument is "it doesn't have to be psychic power" is telling. You're trying to make it not work.

I'm acknowleding that if someone's coming at this with "I want to play a psychic character", then they're probably not wanting the same abilities as someone who wants to have been touched by an eldritch entity and are physically and mentally changed from the result, as the two concepts can veer off in different directions

People deserve more options, not everything to be shoehorned into one. We saw how well shoehorning every caster into Wizard went in the game's past, and the answer was people started making more classes the moment they could because, shock and horror, D&D's wizard isn't the be all and end all of every spellcasting concept one can come up with

It's a D&D Psion, with explanations tied to D&D psychic lore (like Ilithids and other aberrations). It's not a "true psion" any more than it is a True Scotsman.

And there are already more varied choices than a single psionic class could provide just among primary casters. No one Psion class could cover the Aberrant Mind, the revised GOOlock and the Whispers Bard. So clearly the problem isn't one of variety or flexibility.

Let's re-establish: We're talking about Dungeons and Dragons that has, for most of this game's life, had a dedicated psion that was different from wizards and was just, a psion. And now you're saying "Well, too bad, if you wanted to redo your old psion characters in the new edition, here's your only option, not even your own base class that can't do half the things and you've just got to feed off the scraps from wizard"

Yeah, no one psion could but, guess what? I'm not asking for a one psion class to eat alll that. I'm asking for a psion class to be a base Psion Thing by itself for people who want to delve more into those mechanics and concepts seperately, probably with its own subclasses that do their own takes on the concept. The other class subclasses can all stay around fine, they just can grab a few more abilities due to psions being more supported

Which means that ancestors doing the nasty with aberrants isn't a necessary part of the class.

4/6 of the suggested backgrounds for Aberrant Mind have to do with aberrations and, hell, the name alone has it. Its clearly an aberration themed one and not just "General Psionic Powers" themed

 

[Neonchameleon]

Right, just llike how Battlemaster is totally sufficient for everyone who wants Warlord and we haven't had countless threads about folks wanting a warlord

Let me put this simply: I don't want the tiny side-dish, I want the full course meal where things get their proper showing, and based on how popular 3rd party additional classes are just on the psion theme, I'm not the only one who thinks the current showing is a nice starting point but not enough.

Whenever the Battlemaster "Warlord" comes up people have clearly and relevant mechanical descriptions of what the warlord did but the Battlemaster didn't. And there is strong consensus as to what these are. And why the playstyle doesn't match at all.

Whenever the Psion comes up there are (as in this thread) people asking for things already done by the Aberrant Mind. No one has ever mentioned one single thing I am aware of about how the Aberrant Mind has a different playstyle to the Psion. Because it doesn't.

And people insisting that because one option at level 14 is something they dislike it ruins the whole thing. And people insisting that psychic spells aren't magic because someone with a thesaurus replaced "caster" with "manifester".

I have a large buffet here - Aberrant Mind, GOOlock, Whispers Bard, Astral Self Monk, Soulknife, Psi Warrior.

Bladesinger and Eldritch Knight work completely differently despite at their heart being "Wizard and Fighter share components" each way

They work differently because they are different classes. We already have that range; GOOlock Bladelock and Soulknife are both psychics with psychic weapons.

I'm acknowleding that if someone's coming at this with "I want to play a psychic character", then they're probably not wanting the same abilities as someone who wants to have been touched by an eldritch entity and are physically and mentally changed from the result, as the two concepts can veer off in different directions

People deserve more options, not everything to be shoehorned into one.

Which is why the existing buffet is better than your It Must Be A Class And Nothing Else Will Do.

We saw how well shoehorning every caster into Wizard went in the game's past,

Which is what you are trying to do. You are saying there must be one psychic class.

Meanwhile the existing options are the opposite. We have sorcerers, warlocks, bards, monks, rogues, and fighters all with psionic options.

Let's re-establish: We're talking about Dungeons and Dragons that has, for most of this game's life, had a dedicated psion that was different from wizards and was just, a psion.

And they had four basic features

• Wizard hp, armour, weapons, and wizard level centralisation on spellcasting.
• A spell point casting system with the number of spells points you got being based on wizard totals
• Spells you could cast without VSM components
• 70 pages worth of shovelware spells that were often knock-off wizard spells, many referencing the wizard spells by name. There were a few gems in there.

And the Aberrant Mind nails points 1-3. It doesn't bother with the shovelware - if a spell is good enough to include it is good enough to share.

And now you're saying "Well, too bad, if you wanted to redo your old psion characters in the new edition, here's your only option, not even your own base class that can't do half the things and you've just got to feed off the scraps from wizard"

What are these "half the things" it can't do? Because so far no one I can recall has presented one single thing the Aberrant Mind can't do that a Psion can other than call itself a full class. No one I can recall other than me has even mentioned a single one of the spells that hasn't been ported - or any of the ephemera like psycrystals.

And it is a straight up lie to say that Aberrant Mind is being presented as the only option. I've been pointing out revised GOOlocks, Whispers Bards, and Soulknives.

Yeah, no one psion could but, guess what? I'm not asking for a one psion class to eat alll that.

Indeed. What the psion used to do has already been eaten by the Aberrant Mind, which left few crumbs. And just one subclass could do it by itself because of how little was actually there mechanically other than a knock-off wizard with a wizardish playstyle.

And by not forcing psychics to be wizard knockoffs the way psions did they really got opened up.

I'm asking for a psion class to be a base Psion Thing by itself for people who want to delve more into those mechanics and concepts seperately,

If you want the Psion mechanics from previous editions the Aberrant Mind has the ones that aren't universal for casters in 5e. They weren't that much.

Meanwhile if you add a new "this is how psychics work" class you're attempting a straightjacket on something that's already escaped. Meanwhile there's much more room for something like the Mystic that isn't claiming to be The One True Psychic Class.

probably with its own subclasses that do their own takes on the concept. The other class subclasses can all stay around fine, they just can grab a few more abilities due to psions being more supported

Or they already exist. The only new abilities they could grab would be spells.

4/6 of the suggested backgrounds for Aberrant Mind have to do with aberrations and, hell, the name alone has it. Its clearly an aberration themed one and not just "General Psionic Powers" themed

So what you are saying is that if you don't want the aberration theming no one is making you use it? It's simply the default and alternatives are written in for if you want to play other ways. Your literal complaint here is that it makes plenty of room for your tastes without orbiting around them.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Maybe we shouldn't be telling people who aren't satisfied that they should be satisfied because we're satisfied?

 

[Hatmatter]

What are these "half the things" it can't do? Because so far no one I can recall has presented one single thing the Aberrant Mind can't do that a Psion can other than call itself a full class. No one I can recall other than me has even mentioned a single one of the spells that hasn't been ported - or any of the ephemera like psycrystals.

As someone who has long-waited for the psionicist or similar class to appear (and in fact I have not entirely given up hope), I have found my thinking gradually changing over the past couple years. I think my principle reluctance with the sorcerer option is that there are still material components for some of the spells...and I have never associated material components with psionic use, unless it was a tuning device of some sort. My hope is that 2024 revision of sorcerer will create a more open space for the psionic subclass option (aberrant mind) to flourish. I think this is possible.

I will also say that there are some particular features of the aberrant mind that lead to a particular version of the psionicist, but not, for example, the Professor X version or the highly trained monastic-type.

But, overall, I think there is a great breadth of psionic ability that can be expressed through a combination of the psionic subclasses and through taking the psionic feats, especially now that everyone gets a feat at 1st level.

I never really played 3rd edition, so I can't speak to that, but I would say that the subclass and feat option are superior to the way psioncis were handled in 1st and 2nd edition (and I loved them in 2nd edition). I will admit I have a soft spot for how power sources were handled in 4th edition, as I always liked that, but over time, as I mentioned above, I have come to appreciate the elegance of using the existing subclass structure, the existing spell structure, and feats to capture psionics. But I do hope there are some revisions to the sorcerer that will better accommodate a psionic user.

Some have suggested a floating primary ability score (either Charisma, Wisdom, or Intelligence instead of simply always Charisma) for the sorcerer and I liked that idea, but I doubt we will be seeing that come September with the revised Player's Handbook...would have been nice though.