What is the standard ability score set? Are most games playing too high?

[Nyaricus]

The 4d6 DTL gives an average of 12.5ish per score - or 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13 for the average roll.

I don't use point-buy as out of the book - if I do, it's going to be 75 points, acquired 1-for-1. That gives an average score of 12.5, or 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13. Scaling up or down is easy - on average, +/- 15 points ups (or lowers) the ante to scale the game to where you want it to be.

cheers,
--N

 

[blargney the second]

We use 32 point-buy in our gestalt game and 28 in our other game. As a DM, i prefer 28 - it's much easier to balance encounters.
-blarg

 

[Hussar]

I disagree with Crothian. The difference between a 32 point buy and 25 point buy is about the same as LA+1. Certainly by 35, it is a +1 LA. Looking at it another way, using a 32 or 35 point buy is effectively handing out about 16k gp worth of stat buff items at 1st level.

Or, put it another way. If I told you that humans now had all the stuff humans normally get, plus +4 Str +4 Dex and +2 Con, would that be worth a LA? That's about the difference between 25 and 35 point buy.

It's all very well and good to say that heroes are not a collection of stats, but, all things being equal, a 35 point buy dwarf is going to be a HECK of a lot more effective than a 25 point buy one.

 

[RedFox]

I disagree with Crothian. The difference between a 32 point buy and 25 point buy is about the same as LA+1. Certainly by 35, it is a +1 LA. Looking at it another way, using a 32 or 35 point buy is effectively handing out about 16k gp worth of stat buff items at 1st level.

Or, put it another way. If I told you that humans now had all the stuff humans normally get, plus +4 Str +4 Dex and +2 Con, would that be worth a LA? That's about the difference between 25 and 35 point buy.

It's all very well and good to say that heroes are not a collection of stats, but, all things being equal, a 35 point buy dwarf is going to be a HECK of a lot more effective than a 25 point buy one.

So? I mean, if Crothian's games work out fine then I don't think it matters. A friend of mine just gives everyone straight 16's in all abilities. No LA, no big deal. Works out fine.

 

[Maldor]

Man are stats blow most of you away are standerd is 46 has been for two years and it's a step down from the average stats when we rolled which was 4d6 12 times keep best 6
and if you got a low stat character you got to reroll when you died and had to make a new character in are game it's not done tell your nearly dead

 

[S'mon]

Best 3/4d6 dropping useless characters gives average results similar to 28 PB. Strict best 3/d6 gives results on average similar to 25 PB, given that point buy allows for more optimisation.

My PBEMs are Moldvay B/X and C&C, in which 3d6 not 3/4d6 is standard method, so NPCs should have lower stats than in 3e. For them I use a choice between
1. 25 point buy and
2. 16 14 13 12 10 9 array, which is 28 points but not totally optimised.

Most players choose the 28 pt array, but some with a strong concept choose the 25 pt PB.

 

[S'mon]

I've never seen any problems with PCs up to ca 32 or even 35 points. The big problems in 3e come with 'diehard' type players' rolled PCs whose stats come to ca 50 points; when the next guy has 30 pts the 50 pter tends to dominate play. Plus he hits far harder than a normal PC, but is still vulnerable, so play balance is out of whack.

 

[Hussar]

So? I mean, if Crothian's games work out fine then I don't think it matters. A friend of mine just gives everyone straight 16's in all abilities. No LA, no big deal. Works out fine.

The original question is whether or not point buy matters. I simply disagree with Croth's assessment. If it works for him, fine, but, I find that it does not work so well for me. One of the gripes that commonly come across is that PC's are creaming encounters that are EL+3 or +4 regularly. If that's true, then I wonder what the cause is.

IMHO, one of the causes is a very high point buy character. Point buy at 35+ equates out with about a +1 LA race. Straight 16's, for example, means that the character has saving throws several levels higher than his level would indicate, probably around 50% more hit points and several more skill ranks than normal.

Again, if I introduced a dwarf variant that had all the abilities of a dwarf, plus an additional +4 strength, Dex, Con, Charisma and Intelligence, would that be a +1LA? That's what straight 16's means, effectively.

While I do agree with Crothian that lower point characters can be every bit as effective, if played very well, that is besides the point. It's dodging the issue. If I play a high point buy character very well, then your low point buy character will never be as effective as mine. Relying on the high point buy player to be stupid is not a good source of game design.

 

[RedFox]

It'll matter only for low-level play, really. As is pointed out in discussions about +1/+2 LA races, those small LA benefits (like a group of high abilities) become rather insignificant as the game progresses.

So while I think it's still meaningful, it's not going to make a huge difference overall.

 

[Crothian]

It's all very well and good to say that heroes are not a collection of stats, but, all things being equal, a 35 point buy dwarf is going to be a HECK of a lot more effective than a 25 point buy one.

Being effective and being a hero are not the same thing. And all things are never equal.