Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[Chaosmancer]

There is no issue with this. In my experience wizards items generally let them do more of the same, rather than be much better at what they do. Unlike a fighters items that objective make them better at things they do all the time, like hit things and deflect attacks.

... Yes? I mean, you literally just gave the fighter items to boost AC and their to-hit bonus.

I could give the wizard at-will telekinesis, defense against arrows, the ability to just automatically deal damage, more options to simply dominate the fighters mind, regeneration. Or, I can just do what you did, and increase the Dragon's AC.

Is there a specific effect that will absolutely shut down the fighter in a duel? Probably not. Most items have saves of DC 15, but this fighter hasn't seemed to invest in wisdom, so I'm sure I'd get him with something.

As I said earlier and made clear in my post GWM was an alternative to the sword and board fighter. Either take the damage and whittle the dragon down fairly quickly with sword and board, or Great weapon it and break concentration. Both are possible.

Great Weapon is a poor choice though, as I showed.

And, even if the fighter turtles up and uses sword and board, you have to remember all of the hp of the dragon he is cutting through? None of it is the wizard's health. It is all temporary hp.

All this is looking at the wrong question though. 20th level fighters are not dueling 20th level wizards in isolation. They are both approaching the adventuring day at the same time, and the fighter will consistently out-fight the wizard in the foes they face across the day. D&D isn’t about single spells changing the adventure, if it is then the adventure writing is sloppy. It’s generally about a series of encounters.

Really? We literally have a discussion about needing to go to a different plane of existence. That cannot happen without magic.

At high levels:
How did you learn where to go? Usually magic
So, how does the party get to the encounters? Usually Magic
What happens during combat? The wizard is using magic to control the battlefield, buff the fighter, debuff the enemies or just kill them.
What happens out of combat? The wizard is using magic to solve puzzles, reach places, find things, and bypass challenges.
What happens in the climatic fight? The wizard shuts down the encounter with a powerful spell.


Sure, maybe the fighter... I don't know, did a strength check that was really clutch? Knew a person to talk to? But casters define the game at high levels. Heck, even at low-levels. Murder mystery games are hard to run. Not because of fighters, but because of casters. Can't just put the McGuffin in a place that is high up. Not because of fighters, but because of casters. Need to know what someone is thinking? Casters can do that. Need to find a missing person? Casters can do that. Someone is dead and their body disintegrated? Casters can fix that.

The only thing in the entire game that a caster cannot do, is deal with anti-magic. Literally, you have to remove magic for them to not potentially, at some level, have an answer to what you have just done.

Why is the Tarrasque such a joke? Because it is essentially a high-level fighter. All it can do is make physical attacks and run. That's it, so it can be taken out by a mid-level party.

 

[TheSword]

... Yes? I mean, you literally just gave the fighter items to boost AC and their to-hit bonus.

I could give the wizard at-will telekinesis, defense against arrows, the ability to just automatically deal damage, more options to simply dominate the fighters mind, regeneration. Or, I can just do what you did, and increase the Dragon's AC.

Is there a specific effect that will absolutely shut down the fighter in a duel? Probably not. Most items have saves of DC 15, but this fighter hasn't seemed to invest in wisdom, so I'm sure I'd get him with something.



Great Weapon is a poor choice though, as I showed.

And, even if the fighter turtles up and uses sword and board, you have to remember all of the hp of the dragon he is cutting through? None of it is the wizard's health. It is all temporary hp.




Really? We literally have a discussion about needing to go to a different plane of existence. That cannot happen without magic.

At high levels:
How did you learn where to go? Usually magic
So, how does the party get to the encounters? Usually Magic
What happens during combat? The wizard is using magic to control the battlefield, buff the fighter, debuff the enemies or just kill them.
What happens out of combat? The wizard is using magic to solve puzzles, reach places, find things, and bypass challenges.
What happens in the climatic fight? The wizard shuts down the encounter with a powerful spell.


Sure, maybe the fighter... I don't know, did a strength check that was really clutch? Knew a person to talk to? But casters define the game at high levels. Heck, even at low-levels. Murder mystery games are hard to run. Not because of fighters, but because of casters. Can't just put the McGuffin in a place that is high up. Not because of fighters, but because of casters. Need to know what someone is thinking? Casters can do that. Need to find a missing person? Casters can do that. Someone is dead and their body disintegrated? Casters can fix that.

The only thing in the entire game that a caster cannot do, is deal with anti-magic. Literally, you have to remove magic for them to not potentially, at some level, have an answer to what you have just done.

Why is the Tarrasque such a joke? Because it is essentially a high-level fighter. All it can do is make physical attacks and run. That's it, so it can be taken out by a mid-level party.

Maybe in your games, not in ours. I suspect you have a DM who is obsessed with such gimmicks.

Fighters contribute extensively and are successful at the things that make D&D fun. This argument is dominated by people who want to make fighters like wizards, ignoring the fact that people play fighters because they Don’t want to be wizards.

Fighter classes continue to be extremely popular in our games. I’ll leave you to yours.

 

[Minigiant]

Really? We literally have a discussion about needing to go to a different plane of existence. That cannot happen without magic.

At high levels:
How did you learn where to go? Usually magic
So, how does the party get to the encounters? Usually Magic
What happens during combat? The wizard is using magic to control the battlefield, buff the fighter, debuff the enemies or just kill them.
What happens out of combat? The wizard is using magic to solve puzzles, reach places, find things, and bypass challenges.
What happens in the climatic fight? The wizard shuts down the encounter with a powerful spell.

Again I think this issue in not magic itself warps everthing and more that the community won't sit down and discuss high level D&D.

So magic spells and crazy monsters become the only thing that exist there.

Again few have the onus to describe what a high level fighter, rogue, ranger, bard, or monk looks like. So huge holes are in high level play, the same ideas are ported over, and only magic spells exist as solutions.

 

[TheSword]

Again I think this issue in not magic itself warps everthing and more that the community won't sit down and discuss high level D&D.

So magic spells and crazy monsters become the only thing that exist there.

Again few have the onus to describe what a high level fighter, rogue, ranger, bard, or monk looks like. So huge holes are in high level play, the same ideas are ported over, and only magic spells exist as solutions.

I’m pretty comfortable with John Wick, Alexios, King Arthur, Achilles, Robin Hood, and Boewulf holding that territory.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I think answering this question effectively requires defining what high level D&D is supposed to look like, something I don't think has ever been done effectively. Each group is left to kind of define it for themselves, but the one thing that's consistant is that none of it's mundane. Whether that's reality warping spells, planar travel, or even the enemies the party faces, it's different. Characters affect the world, or even several worlds, through their actions.

I suggest that levels 11-20 shouldn't be assumed. The game should support playing the same characters indefinitely within the same playstyle of the first 10 levels. Cap all the classes at level 10, much like the current 5e is capped at 20. Provide a way for characters to expand without significantly scaling in power. More options, as opposed to more power. Add strongholds and retainers, but keep it to the mundane. Spells never go past 5th or 6th level.

Then build high level play as its own thing with its own classes. Make it optional. Allow it to be decidedly superhuman. PCs are demigods, archmages, mystic warriors, avatars to their god, etc. Basically, make levels 11 and up epic level play, which I consider to be more fitting to the power level of 7th through 9th level spells.

 

[Minigiant]

I’m pretty comfortable with John Wick, Alexios, King Arthur, Achilles, Robin Hood, and Boewulf holding that territory.

I'd argue that Robin Hood isn't high level.

But you proved my point.

John Wick, Alexios, King Arthur, Achilles, Robin Hood, and Boewulf are all different archetypes of high level fighters.

John Wick is the Action Hero
Alexios is half Action Hero and Half Mythic hero
King Authur is half Fighter lord half Christmas Tree
Achilles is a Demigod
Robin Hood is half Fighter Lord and half Deadly Hero
Beowuf is a Mythic Hero

There is no consensus. You can't build John Wick, Achilles, and King Authur as the same class without major variant rules.

 

[TheSword]

I'd argue that Robin Hood isn't high level.

But you proved my point.

John Wick, Alexios, King Arthur, Achilles, Robin Hood, and Boewulf are all different archetypes of high level fighters.

John Wick is the Action Hero
Alexios is half Action Hero and Half Mythic hero
King Authur is half Fighter lord half Christmas Tree
Achilles is a Demigod
Robin Hood is half Fighter Lord and half Deadly Hero
Beowuf is a Mythic Hero

There is no consensus. You can't build John Wick, Achilles, and King Authur as the same class without major variant rules.

Of course I can. Even the Champion Fighter is a very versatile class because of feat and weapon style choices.

For the record drawing your sword as you run 30 ft, killing 8 different individuals, regenerating 10 hp a round and then healing yourself 1d20+20 all in the space of six seconds is not what I would call mundane. I have no problem creating John Wick as a fighter.

 

[GSHamster]

I’m pretty comfortable with John Wick, Alexios, King Arthur, Achilles, Robin Hood, and Boewulf holding that territory.

Are any of them actually high level in D&D terms, though? Boewulf's great enemy is basically a troll. Robin Hood fights a sheriff. King Arthur contends with an enchantress.

None of them really have to deal with "reality-warpers", which is what a high-level D&D character has to deal with.

 

[TheSword]

Are any of them actually high level in D&D terms, though? Boewulf's great enemy is basically a troll. Robin Hood fights a sheriff. King Arthur contends with an enchantress.

None of them really have to deal with "reality-warpers", which is what a high-level D&D character has to deal with.

There aren’t many fictional characters that would be 20th level of any class outside actual d&d fiction though.

I’ll stick with John Wick.

 

[Minigiant]

Of course I can. Even the Champion Fighter is a very versatile class because of feat and weapon style choices.

For the record drawing your sword as you run 30 ft, killing 8 different individuals, regenerating 10 hp a round and then healing yourself 1d20+20 all in the space of six seconds is not what I would call mundane. I have no problem creating John Wick as a fighter.

You're missing my point.

John Wick, King Arthur and Achilles are all high level fighters. They all are superhuman at the levels they exist in. They however are completely different interpretations of what a high level fight is. You cannot take a single class subclass combinaition and add some feats to replicate them. You need to fundamentally change how the fighter workss at high levels to create them.

John Wick is an action hero. He contains most of the fighter features you see in 5e.

King Arthur? Arthur's class features are an overpowered sword and a fantasy kingdom. He has a class feature that says "Choose a legendary or rare weapon in the DMG. You have it now. You can ignore any requirements to attune with it or use it. This ittem does not count against the number of items you can have attunement with."

Achilles is a Demigod with a magical buff on top of it. He can't be dropped except by critical hits.

Robin Hood's class features is trick shots and an actual gang.

And this is before you even bring up fighters from anime/manga/manhua.

There are so man ways to interpet a high level fighter. However the discussion is rarely had because no one but the designers and a few DMs are forces to stay in the discussion and not bail if stuff they don't like enter the discussion. There is no onus to state what a high level fighter is, state what actions they can do, and how they interact with a D&D world.

It's the same thing that happens when someone asks how your nonmagical ranger tracks a dragon or a teleporting demon. Only the design team is forced to answer.