What is this Irresistible Metamagic Feat from Kalamar all about?

[moritheil]

Edena_of_Neith here.
I have heard they released an Irresistible Spell Feat in Kingdoms of Kalamar.
Can someone give me the generals on how that works?

For example, can I make a Disintegrate spell Irresistible, so there is no saving throw for it?

Does the Sudden Metamagic Feat stack with the Irresistible Spell Feat anywhere? (I keep hearing you can somehow pull off the combo with the Divine Metamagic Feat, but how would you do that?)

Because, obviously, if I can start making spells of my repetoire Irresistible and Sudden (such as, a Disintegrate spell would still be 6th level and allow no saving throw) then Houston, We Have A Problem.

Edena_of_Neith

Hey there, EoN. I still recall our prior discussions regarding breaking Divine Metamagic.

It's been errataed to only work with divine spells, though as I pointed out last time, there are a couple of ways around that.

If you accept the "relative balance" school of thought, even irresistable spells will be hard pressed to compete with Divine Spell Power + Sudden Widen + Holy Word (or your favorite variant thereof.) That said, I would almost certainly throw something nasty (most likely, the aforementioned combo) at a player that tried to run around with Irresistable Divine Metamagic.

 

[Solarious]

Who needs Divine Metamagic? What you need is the Incantar/Incantrix, which not only reduces metamagic levels, but also allows you to apply metamagic feats with the appropiate Spellcraft check! They've been doing it for Persistant Spell, which clocks in at +6, so +4 should be a cinch.

 

[Particle_Man]

I think the Kalamar boards ended up saying that Phantasmal Killer as an irrestistable spell only bypassed one of the two saves, but I forget which one. Probably the will save.

 

[Thanee]

Who needs Divine Metamagic? What you need is the Incantar/Incantrix, which not only reduces metamagic levels, but also allows you to apply metamagic feats with the appropiate Spellcraft check! They've been doing it for Persistant Spell, which clocks in at +6, so +4 should be a cinch.

That ability doesn't work on instantaneous spells cast by yourself, though.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Solarious]

That ability doesn't work on instantaneous spells cast by yourself, though.

Bye
Thanee

Does it really matter though? An Irresistable Stone to Flesh is bad enough on it's own, to say nothing of Irresistable Baleful Polymorph/Dominate Person/Hold Monster/Feeblemind... all without going out of Core. Heck, let's throw in Arcane Thesis and really go overboard!

Come to think of it, Clerics have their own Incantar/Incantrix: the dwemonerkeeper. Now, combine Divine Metamagic cheese with Supernatural Spell, Mantle of Spells, and Metamagic Mastery cheese!

 

[DM_Matt]

In a game like that, wizards and clerics (and variants) are going to reign supreme. It's Netheril all over again, even without the 10th level and 11th level spells.

Except that Netherilese Arcanists wouldn't even accept healing from a cleric, let alone multiclass as one...

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Except that Netherilese Arcanists wouldn't even accept healing from a cleric, let alone multiclass as one...

Most wouldn't. There's always an exception. Unless they've been brain-washed.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Ok, let me ask these questions:

Moritheil, you *did* previously tell me how Arcane Casters got around the errata on Divine Metamagic, but it's been awhile. Could you explain again? (Obviously, one could go with the original unaltered Divine Metamagic Feat ... why should clerics have al the fun? ... but I'm simply curious here.)

What is the Divine Spell Power Feat? What's it do, in general?
What does the Supernatural Spell Feat do? Is Mantle of Spells a Feat? If yes, what does it do?

Concerning Pun-Pun, I do remember he was of infinite level, had infinite save throws, and what not.
But what good is a fantastic save, if you are not allowed a saving throw? An Irresistible Spell disallows any saving throw. So even if you had +1,000,000,000 (or, how even about a zetaflop's worth of saving throw bonuses, or how about a google-plex worth of saving throw bonuses), it would be useless against Irresistible Spell since Irresisible Spell allows no save.

And I'm sure there's a feat out there - somewhere - that does for Spell Resistance what Irresistible Spell does for saves.
Thus, Pun Pun dies because his infinite bonuses are irrelevant.

 

[Thanee]

What is the Divine Spell Power Feat? What's it do, in general?

Increase (usually) caster level by a random number.

What does the Supernatural Spell Feat do? Is Mantle of Spells a Feat? If yes, what does it do?

They aren't feats, they are class abilities. Check out the Web Enhancement for Complete Divine (IIRC), where the Dweomerkeeper class update is found.

Thus, Pun Pun dies because his infinite bonuses are irrelevant.

No, because he has infinite Initiative and Spot and Hide as well... and Irresitible Spell (and all other feats, and everything).

Not really, though, because he doesn't actually exist...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(chuckles) Unfortunately for us all, Pun Pun has always existed. He was there in the first D&D game, he lasted through OD&D, he stalked 1st edition, haunted 2nd edition, rabble roused in 3.0, and his horrid spectral visage is grinning at us in 3.5. And his ugly face (Sam's apple not included) awaits us in 4th edition, too.
There is always the wild card, always the rule from left field, always the unexpected. In Knightmare Chess, you come to expect that, because that is what that game is all about. In D&D, the unexpected is also heavily what the game is about ... unfortunately for the poor, harassed, and overworked DM, the unexpected always happens, always happens at the worst time, always crashes his beautiful party, and hours of hard work go crashing down in a stupifying roar of epic disaster. (As any DM will tell you, it has happened to him or her over and over and over and over and ...)

This rule, this Irresistible Spell Feat, is one of those nasty, unexpected surprises out of left field. What makes this one exceptional is that it comes from a core rulebook (or, perhaps, what is exceptional is that so many rules out of left field come from core books, like the Frenzied Berserker.)

The DM has that nifty Rule Zero option as self protection against the maniacs ... err, players, that he or she is running the game for. And that is a good thing, truly. For otherwise, I don't think any campaign world - not even the mighty Forgotten Realms - would last past the party reaching 10th level!

(Don't take this post as a criticism to the game designers. It is meant lightheartedly. D&D is just one of those games which encourages the players to tear the campaign world apart, eat it for dinner, and start on the moons and stars for dessert. It's the way of things! (Or, they couldn't spoof us in Knights of the Dinner Table ...))