What is wrong with 4E?

[Intense_Interest]

Way to snipe-quote there.

The second (4th Ed) PC is clearly getting less bang for the buck, and is arguably gimped.

8th Level Dwarf Fighter with Arcane Initiate (representing a better genre convention than "looking over his shoulder) selecting Thunderwave and Acolyte Power swapping a lvl 2 for Feather Fall.

He is a member of a military Dwarf group called "Moradin's Thunder". He and other members are organized into squads called "Tons" that have the same type of abilities.

They are loaded into one of the many catapult/trechubet and launched into an approaching army, using Feather Fall to land safely. 5 Dwarf soldiers landing into the middle of an army's column per round per artillery.

Is that Gimped, or Awesome?

FURTHERMORE

4Ed style multiclassing is unidirectional, and only supports one kind of PC concept- the Dabbler.

I'm not arguing this. Except that Mashups are supposed to be actual base classes now.

3.X allowed for a variety of PC concepts. The Dabbler is supported, but so is the Renaissance Man, the Jack of All Trades (and Master of None).

Jack of All Trades, Master of None is either A- a base class B- broken to the point of scrapping the comparative power of challenges.

The last one is the most telling- it is a powerful archetype in myth and fantasy lit, as well as reality. For example, it was not uncommon for warriors in feudal Japan to retire from the way of bushido and enter a monastery. In the West, entry into a monastery or cloister was another relatively common way for someone to change their lives, even after a lifetime of achievement.

A thug who "sees the light," like a killer who becomes a moral pillar and reforms himself is another relatively common trope.

And it is utterly unsupported by 4Ed's multiclassing rules. You choose your PC's first class, and he is primarily that forevermore.

Really? You can't restart the character and call him Tom the Monk instead of Tom the Thug?

I'm not seeing the issue:

1- start him back at the beginning; used for complete overhauls of personality
2- Dabble, reconfig to Base class with a Counter-dabble, then reconfig to Base if it is a complete change.

But you're right in that there is a third pillar to old Multiclassing, except it wasn't really multiclassing as much as "Starting a new character".

 

[hong]

I would argue that a powerful Warlord or Daimyo who retires and spends the next 40 years of his life as a Monk is no mere dabbler.

Yes. Yes, he is.

(Game time spent does not always correlate to character level, and certainly not to overall power.)

And, as I pointed out, that kind of character development is precluded by 4Ed.

Lolwut?

 

[hong]

ROFL

Well, I'm not the one who brought it up twice

Point me to where anyone claimed 4E > 3E + 3.5.

Just for your memory, here is what Sukael said:

The books have already (in the few days since released) oversold the initial runs of both 3.5e and 3e.

 

[hong]

Really? You can't restart the character and call him Tom the Monk instead of Tom the Thug?

Hell, who needs to restart? Warlord d00d gets to 10th level; retires; takes another class on reaching paragon tier.

Now you may not beable to do this at 1st level, but a "powerful warlord or daimyo who retires" is not by any stretch of the imagination a 1st level character.

 

[Zinegata]

Point me to where anyone claimed 4E > 3E + 3.5.

ROFL.

Nobody claimed that. I only said you brought it up twice (thrice now actually). By quoting me.

I wasn't rebutting anyone with that particular statement. Again, I was just stating a fact.

But hey, since you keep bringing it up, maybe it is relevant, even though you just said it was irrelevant.

 

[hong]

ROFL.

Nobody claimed that. I only said you brought it up twice (thrice now actually). By quoting me.

I wasn't rebutting anyone with that particular statement. Again, I was just stating a fact.

Oh, well, that's all right then.


I like peanut butter.


Everybody join in!

 

[Intense_Interest]

ROFL.

Nobody claimed that. I only said you brought it up twice (thrice now actually). By quoting me.

I wasn't rebutting anyone with that particular statement. Again, I was just stating a fact.

But hey, since you keep bringing it up, maybe it is relevant, even though you just said it was irrelevant.

Is this a discussion or a troll? Because drive-by-"statements-of-fact" w/o contributing to the discussion is exactly that.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Is that Gimped, or Awesome?

Its irrelevant to the example I posted.

And had you used 3.X and made him a Ftr/BattleSorc or Ftr/WarMage, you could have done essentially the same thing but with more spells.

As for:

1- start him back at the beginning; used for complete overhauls of personality
2- Dabble, reconfig to Base class with a Counter-dabble, then reconfig to Base if it is a complete change.

I have no interest in retraining rules. Someone who profoundly changes his life probably does have his primary skillset atrophy with time, but he doesn't lose everything completely.

I would argue that a powerful Warlord or Daimyo who retires and spends the next 40 years of his life as a Monk is no mere dabbler.

Yes. Yes, he is.

(Game time spent does not always correlate to character level, and certainly not to overall power.)

It never has been.

However, if said warlord worked his way up the ranks from a field soldier to a leader of men, then retired as I stated, then most definitely he is no dabbler. He earned the first position through skill and force of arms, and should be allowed to advance as far in his second profession as far as he can.

 

[hong]

I have no interest in retraining rules. Someone who profoundly changes his life probably does have his primary skillset atrophy with time, but he doesn't lose everything completely.

It's a good thing that retraining doesn't cause you to lose everything completely, then.

However, if said warlord worked his way up the ranks from a field soldier to a leader of men, then retired as I stated, then most definitely he is no dabbler. He earned the first position through skill and force of arms, and should be allowed to advance as far in his second profession as far as he can.

He will certainly advance as far as he can, in 3E and 4E.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Oh, well, that's all right then.


I like peanut butter.


Everybody join in!

No. I prefer Nusspli.