What is wrong with 4E?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

"But...but... that means my character isn't as good at his original class as if he hadn't multiclassed!" Well, friggin duh. That's how it SHOULD be.

No.

Or rather. He doesn't have to be good at his original class at the same level. But he should be as good - overall - as a member of the original class of the same level. If he gets more versatile, then this versatility must translate to the characters power level. Being able to cast Cure Serious Wounds and Fireball is versatile, but it is never as useful or powerful as being able to cast Cure Light Wounds (Mass) or Cone of Cold.

 

[Slife]

The entire paradigm, as much as I hate to use that word, has changed; you might as well complain that you can't do 1e/2e style multiclassing in 3e.

You can. Use the gestalt rules and give half the exp to that character. As a consequence of lower level characters getting more exp, and lower levels taking less exp to level up, the character's level will stabilize around 1 or 2 levels behind the party.

This has the side effect that at levels one and two the gestalt character is significantly better off. Just like in 1e/2e.

 

[Darth Shoju]

Hi Darth Shoju,

Thanks for your detailed comments

No problem!

I agree that it's great to have a beautifully working system (I think I said so in my original post). I questioned whether or not enough emphasis had been placed on the immersion. Sure, the game needs a great system, that's a given. But whether or not the system is paramount is a matter of personal taste. There are also many gamers out there who feel that the immersion is equally important.

I agree that immersion is important, but this is something I don't think D&D has done well since the earliest editions, IMO. I guess I've gotten used to it by now.

True, many of 3.5E's feats do have short descriptions much like many of 4E's powers. The main two differences I read into them are; 3.5E's power-equivalent features seem to be based on what a character might believably be able to do, while 4E's power features often seem to be based on what is a workable game mechanic -- regardless of whether or not it is believable in the game world. And also, the tone of 3.5E's descriptions just feel more factual, while 4E's descriptions feel sensationalist. It's a personal preference which you prefer -- I happen to prefer the former.

After reading through the feats this morning, I have to agree that some of them are pure meta-game and hard to translate into anything "realistic". I'm thinking it's one of the imperfections I'll see if I can live with.

I agree with you there -- however I also think that the "economics" (such that they are) have become less believable with 4E rather than more so. Even just maintaining the status quo would have been preferable to me.

Yeah, but I'm guessing as they intro more equipment the nice even numbers will break down eventually.

I think that the classes of previous editions were made more distinct by the restrictions that came with them as much as the benfits. Choosing a class used to mean forgoing opportunities that were then only available to members of other classes. It seems to me that 4E classes come with fewer (almost no) restrictions. In my mind this makes the 4E classes less distinct.

I think this may be an effect of the classes having so few out of combat abilities. When we played KotS I found the classes seemed pretty distinct. Everyone had something to do and it ran very smoothly considering we had never touched 4e before, so I take that as a good sign.

Many thanks for sharing your thoughts, and also for your very civilised manner -- much appreciated

My pleasure!

 

[hexgrid]

If I wanted to play a game like 4e, I'd rather play Descent.

You will be disappointed looking for a 4e-like experience in Descent.

Descent doesn't even have character creation rules!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In that case, 4E multiclassing rules seem good enough.

No, they're not. They're not even close.

When I multiclass a PC, I'm looking to get access to the full range of abilities and powers that added class has, not just a cherry-picked selection of them.

And I'm not alone in this- when I read that section of the rules to my group, the general reaction was one of disgust.

 

[JDJblatherings]

, instead of rifling through the PHB and 132 splat books for the definition of spell x. I mean power x.

Wait, the splat books weren't available within a week of the release of 3e either.

 

[Doug McCrae]

You will be disappointed looking for a 4e-like experience in Descent.

Descent doesn't even have character creation rules!

Descent is the worst edition of D&D evar!

 

[BryonD]

4E is an unmitigated commercial success.

That is a long long way from being a fact. 4E could sell at boom rates for a full year and still end up being a flop. And the highly mixed bag responses I've seen leave that potential very much in play.

I still see an ultimately shallow game that will go from *new shiny* to *been there done that* much faster than any prior version.

 

[BryonD]

Descent is the worst edition of D&D evar!

Yeah, but 4E is ALMOST as good a board game.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

Yeah, but 4E is ALMOST as good a board game.

Anyone else tired of this schtick? What value is there in these types of posts?

I challenge you, Lord Bryon, to go back through that last 20 posts you've had and see if any of them meet the following criteria: (1) an absence of negativity, and (2) a meaningful comment to the topic at hand.

Hell, I give you props if you find one in the past fifty posts you've made.

Look...back on track, and I'm embarrassed I'm wasting time typing this, you'll never be satisfied. You're like my kid who wants a Reese's Cup. I give him one, and he'll want another. I give him two, he'll want a third. Interspersed with these wants is incessant, ear-bleeding whining.

So, to the point at hand, 4E won't be a success until it sells well for one year, eh? And after that year is over and it's still selling well...you'll change the Bryon Requirement to 2 years, won't you? Joseph Heller would be proud of you.

4E is a success. It's not for you. Who cares? I don't. No one else does.

I'm sorry man. I'm sure you're a nice guy, but your posts drip so much hate and woe-is-me stuff that it's tough to ignore.

Wis