What is wrong with race class limits?

[Sejs]

Then lets take out height, weight, and age restrictions, too, from the core rules, and impose them in the settings.

You mean like Dark Sun's 7 foot tall desert nomad elves, for example?

The stance you seem to be taking is that class restrictions were/are part of a race's physical makeup. Hard concept to swallow. Your physical parameters are established when you're conceived, your height, weight, age, etc. Class is something you learn. Are you born with limits on what you can learn by means of genetics? Half orcs can't learn to juggle, elves can never drive stick, and halflings will never be able to grasp long division.

Sorry Dcas, but your argument is a tad fallacious.

Limits are limits on PCs, not on NPCs and figures of old.

Well I guess that would support the elven belief of "Everything was better before".

Seriously though, such a limitation was never stated anywhere that I remember seeing. Limits were limits, they wern't just for PCs.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The stance you seem to be taking is that class restrictions were/are part of a race's physical makeup. Hard concept to swallow. Your physical parameters are established when you're conceived, your height, weight, age, etc. Class is something you learn. Are you born with limits on what you can learn by means of genetics? Half orcs can't learn to juggle, elves can never drive stick, and halflings will never be able to grasp long division.

Sorry Dcas, but your argument is a tad fallacious.

You're applying real world biology to a magical environment. I think the reasoning could have been better argued back in the day, but I don't think that realism has much to say here.

 

[Remathilis]

Just so everyone has the numbers for the discussion:

PC race/class restrictions and level limits from the AD&D1 PHB

Quasqueton

Some more numbers: 2nd Edition's Level Limits (from DMG)

Dwarf:
Cleric 10
Fighter 15
Thief 12
MC: Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Thief

Elf:
Cleric 12
Fighter 12
Mage* 15
Ranger 15
Thief 12
MC: Fighter/Mage, Mage/Thief, Fighter/Thief, Fighter/Mage/Thief

Gnome:
Cleric 9
Fighter 11
Illusionist 13
Thief 15
MC: Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Illusionist, Fighter/Thief, Illusionist/Thief, Cleric/Illusionist, Cleric/Thief

Half-elf
Bard U
Cleric 14
Druid 9
Fighter 14
Mage 12
Ranger 16
Thief 12
MC: Fighter/Mage, Mage/Thief, Fighter/Thief, Fighter/Mage/Thief, Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Druid, Cleric/Ranger, Druid/Ranger, Cleric/Mage, Druid/Mage, Fighter/Mage/Cleric, Fighter/Mage/Druid

Halfling
Cleric 8
Fighter 9
Thief 15
MC: Fighter/Thief

You could go over these numbers if you had a high prime requsite

Ability Score Additional Levels
14, 15 +1
16, 17 +2
18 +3
19 +4

So you could get dwarves with an 18 Str topping off at 18th level, not 9th. Still not perfect (halfling clerics topped at 13) but better than 1e

 

[Sejs]

You're applying real world biology to a magical environment. I think the reasoning could have been better argued back in the day, but I don't think that realism has much to say here.

Magic makes the extraordinary ordinary, granted, what's the justification for a racial learning disorder and why does it only apply to adventuring classes?

Completely putting the biology angle aside - the slippery slope of 'if you toss out standard demihuman role tropes, you might as well eliminate everything else as well' is bs. Might as well say that if dwarves can be wizards then the terrorists have already won. It's about as concrete.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Magic makes the extraordinary ordinary, granted, what's the justification for a racial learning disorder and why does it only apply to adventuring classes?

My argument would be:

"The demihuman gods crafted their races in a more concrete way than the large tribe of quarrelsome human deities did. As a result, humans have almost unlimited potential, since their creators could agree on almost nothing. In comparison, dwarves and the like were created with a singular vision and are as their gods created them to be.

"If Moradin wanted dwarves to be wizards, he would have created them with a wand in their hand. "

(Personally, I'm just fine with no level/class limits, I just don't think that realism makes a dent in the issue, that's all.)

 

[JVisgaitis]

Because among demihumans, a thief's soul can grow bigger than anyone else's.

And his pockets. I dunno, that's just lame.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

"The demihuman gods crafted their races in a more concrete way than the large tribe of quarrelsome human deities did. As a result, humans have almost unlimited potential, since their creators could agree on almost nothing. In comparison, dwarves and the like were created with a singular vision and are as their gods created them to be.

So, why can't dwarves be great fighters, then? I mean, I just can't see Moradin saying, "I shall make a race of dwarves, in mine own image, but they shall never be all that great with their axes and hammers."

 

[thedungeondelver]

So, why can't dwarves be great fighters, then? I mean, I just can't see Moradin saying, "I shall make a race of dwarves, in mine own image, but they shall never be all that great with their axes and hammers."

Do that, in your campaign. it just doesn't work that way in mine.

 

[lukelightning]

So, why can't dwarves be great fighters, then? I mean, I just can't see Moradin saying, "I shall make a race of dwarves, in mine own image, but they shall never be all that great with their axes and hammers."

Nah, he gets angry that these lazy-ass dwarves are swinging their hammers against soft fleshy living beings instead of getting back to work making things.

 

[Quasqueton]

I never had a problem with accepting the in-game-world *concept* of demihuman level limits.

Why can’t a magic-user who learns the fireball spell cast it repeatedly? Why must he memorize it each morning after casting it?

Why don’t magic-users get bonus spells for high Int, like clerics do for high Wis?

Why can’t magic-users wear armor? (Note: They can if they are multiclassed.)

Why is there only a limited number of druids per level at higher levels?

Why don’t illusionists get bonus xp for high ability scores like all the other classes?

Why can’t a horse or dragon be revived with a raise dead spell?

Why can’t the sleep spell affect creatures with more than 4 HD?

Why isn’t there a percentile range for an 18 Intelligence, Dexterity, etc., like there is for Strength?

Why can’t a dwarf with 17 Strength advance beyond 8th level?

Since most of the above rules items don’t have an in-game-world explanation in the books, I presume they are for game balance in some way. Their goodness or badness as game rules is unrelated to how or if they are given a game-world explanation. (Such explanations can be created after the fact.) Their goodness or badness as game rules depends on their function and utility and actual balancing affects for the game (not the campaign world).

Quasqueton