What is your character's AC at 20th level with no enhancements?

[Rystil Arden]

The girl with 86 in the other thread has 51 without any magic stuff, losing gobs of AC since she wears no armour or shield (the remaining AC is basically from class abilities alone). Of course, since you've included Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise, that barely knocks her into the 55+ category.

 

[Bill Muench]

I do not even know the right questions to ask, as you have adroitly pointed out.
But I'm trying to learn the right questions. I'll get there.

Bill's post gave me a new awe of the dervish PrC.

If you qualify for it and if it meets your character's concept, I don't think there is a single "fighter" class better than Dervish. Here's a quick breakdown of why:

1. Easy (and useful) requirements to enter
2. Good Ref and Will saves
3. 4 skill points a level
4. Dervish AC bonus over time
5. Great class abilities and bonus feats
6. The big one: Dervish Dance. It pretty much allows you to always get a full attack action as long as your speed is high enough and you have a dance left for the day. That's HUGE. While your other party fighter is charging one round to set up for a full attack the next, you dance in, take your full attack, and dance out. Meanwhile, the other fighter has to sit there and take a full attack from the bad guy while you're safely away. Next round, if the bad guy is still within reach, the other fighter gets a full attack. But so do you.
7. In addition to having a good BAB, the class gives an additional +1 to attack and damage every odd level while in a Dervish dance. So in comparison to another full BAB class, you're up +5 to hit and damage.

Now, it does have some "downsides". Can't use a shield and can't wear anything heavier than light armor. Personally, I don't see these as a big deal. Your movement should allow you to avoid most full attacks except from archers anyway. And I consider mobility much more important than heavy armor. And at higher level, a +5 mithral breastplate (29,300gp IIRC) is still +10 to AC. Your shield bonus can be covered by a Shield spell either via an item or cast from a ring of minor spellstoring. And you get an increasing AC bonus as a Dervish class feature (up to +3).

Only slashing weapons can be used while in a Dervish dance. Eh. There are a lot of good slashing weapons.

The only other downside I can think of is that it allows you to use a scimitar as a light weapon, so you can use two at once. Unfortunately, the way it is worded, it also means that you can't Power Attack with a scimitar anymore since it is a light weapon. My recommendation is to go with a two-handed weapon like a falchion.

So anyways, that's why I think Dervish is, hands down, the best fighter PrC.

He can't hit anything (at least, unless he has large magical bonuses to hit, to compensate for the loss of his BAB) but he can sure defend himself!

Actually, don't assume that will always be the case. Depending on what abilities you can pick up (like Wraithstrike, which allows you to resolve all attacks as touch attacks for a round, or Brilliant Energy weapons that ignore armor bonuses to AC) or what you're fighting (oozes, etc.) you might still be able to hit. Not everything has a huge AC, sometimes they just have tons of HP.

Or let's say he wears heavy armor, because his dex is lousy. He has +7 from half plate (non-magical.) And +2 from his shield. Add in +1 for dodge. Then add +1, maybe, for dex. And then add +20 for improved combat expertise.
Now, he's got an AC of 50 to 51, and antimagic can't take that away from him.
Then he could Fight Defensively, and his AC would rise to 52 to 53.

Remember I'm still translating from a 2nd edition mentality. To me, AC 53 is the equivalent of AC - 23. That's not a bad AC to have, without the help of any magic at all!
If Elaborate Parry adds +4 to AC (as I think it does, reading above) that ups the AC to 57 to 58. And still no magic or psionic aid!

Looks good for the most part. Just remember Dervishes can't wear heavy armor without losing their abilities. And 5 ranks in Tumble (which any Dervish will have) will raise the bonus for Fighting Defensively to +3. So that, plus Elaborate Parry, plus Improved Combat Expertise and a BAB of +20 = +27 to AC for -24 to attack. Not shabby, since that's all touch AC. Good for running up to a beholder and chopping it to pieces when it can't hit your touch AC with those rays.

Bill

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Without magic Dex-boosting items, I had a 20th-level cleric with an AC of 21. Due purely to equipment - he hadn't learned to dodge in 19 years of adventuring. *roll eyes*

I can get a D20 Modern 20th-level character with a moderate Defense ending up with a Defense of 27. (This assumes Dex 14, medium armor proficiency, and a light-duty vest). Of course you could end up lower or higher (A Fast/Strong/Martial Artist could probably get 30 (assuming Dex 16 at 20th-level and a leather jacket). Of course, none of these characters have a lick of magic about them.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

It sounds like the Deft Strike feat and the Improved Combat Expertise feat are an absolutely devastating combination.
One allows you to take a standard action to size up your opponent, then you can move. The next round, the opponent gets no advantage from armor, shields, or natural armor (if you succeed in your check.)
If your attack is some sort of devastating attack (because only a single attack benefits from this feat, with each attempt of the feat) then you can plaster the monster then and there.

Meanwhile, you can use improved combat expertise to raise your AC to untouchable levels, without having to worry about needing a high attack bonus to hit the monster.

It takes some prepreparation, I admit, and it only works for one attack, but what an attack!

As for that AC of 85, I have something to say that is meant as humor ...

In Knights of the Dinner Table, Brian said: When you're the last power in the world with nuclear weapons, you don't NEED experience points!
Well, when you have an AC that is more than twice that of a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, you don't NEED worry about monsters.

(Well, ok, that's absolute nonsense, but still ... an AC of 85 is one heck of an AC!!!)

El Ravager comes up with his +12 Hackmaster. He swings! He ... misses. He sees your AC of 85. And he ... faints?

 

[shilsen]

El Ravager comes up with his +12 Hackmaster. He swings! He ... misses. He sees your AC of 85. And he ... faints?

He disarms, he sunders, he trips, he grapples ... and so on.

As you'll see from some of the posts above, Edena, touch AC is a lot harder to raise than normal AC (as the great wyrm gold dragon with AC 42 and touch AC 2 knows). So many attacks that might miss normal AC will hit touch AC.

Similarly, one of the significant downsides to someone going the fight defensively + Combat Expertise route is that it drastically lowers your attack bonus. A smart enemy will use a maneuver that works off opposed attack rolls (e.g. disarm, sunder), and due to your lowered attack, you're likely to end up without a weapon.

 

[KarinsDad]

He disarms, he sunders, he trips, he grapples ... and so on.

As you'll see from some of the posts above, Edena, touch AC is a lot harder to raise than normal AC (as the great wyrm gold dragon with AC 42 and touch AC 2 knows). So many attacks that might miss normal AC will hit touch AC.

Although the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon does not need to worry about disarms, sunders, trips, or grapples.

He does have to worry about touch spells/powers, some of which have no saves and/or no SR.

Similarly, one of the significant downsides to someone going the fight defensively + Combat Expertise route is that it drastically lowers your attack bonus. A smart enemy will use a maneuver that works off opposed attack rolls (e.g. disarm, sunder), and due to your lowered attack, you're likely to end up without a weapon.

Does the DM just automatically assume that:

1) The opponent knows what Combat Expertise is (if he does not have the feat).
2) The opponent knows that Combat Expertise lowers your ability to protect against certain attack forms.
3) The opponent knows that you are actually using Combat Expertise.

There should minimally be a Spot check to see that Combat Expertise is being used and an Int check (if the opponent does not have the feat) in there somewhere to know all of this, instead of auto-knowledge by a "smart opponent".

Personally as a DM, I would not let my players know that an NPC is using Combat Expertise. I would just let them know if they hit the NPC's AC or not. It's up to the player to figure out how to take advantage of a hard to hit NPC.

With regard to NPCs, most NPCs would just use their normal attack modes and might after a few rounds of having a tough time of hitting a PC, switch over to other attack modes if the normal one is failing. But, they would only do this if they were skilled in a non-standard attack (had the Improved Sunder feat for example).

 

[gfunk]

AC w/o magic and psionics, huh?

Uh. . . . 10.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Remember all, that I'm being humorous or semi-humorous in all my posts.
I have to!

I am a complete amateur here, in 3.5. And I'm talking to experts. In some cases, I'm talking to the people who wrote the rules I'm trying to learn.
It's sorta like a grade-schooler learning arithmetic talking to the college professors who teach calculus. A bit of humility and humor doesn't hurt, does it?

And yeah, those touch attacks really change things. That is a concept that was unknown in in prior editions of the game. I'm still adjusting my mindset to Touch Attack and Ranged Touch Attack (I mean, think about it: A 2nd edition character would have to literally stop, take off his armor, put down his shield, then say 'hit me!' to duplicate the effects of a Touch Attack. It takes a bit of an adjustment in mindset. )

 

[shilsen]

Personally as a DM, I would not let my players know that an NPC is using Combat Expertise. I would just let them know if they hit the NPC's AC or not. It's up to the player to figure out how to take advantage of a hard to hit NPC.

I wouldn't tell my players "She's using Combat Expertise" either, but I would mention that she seems to be focusing on defense rather than going all out. The players may not realize it, but the 6th lvl PC who has been through dozens of life and death combats is likely to have at least that much knowledge, IME.

 

[Twinswords]

Well i made a level 5 dwarf fighter with a very high ac. Kalamar setting.

It broke down something like this. Dex 13, int 13. high con.

So 10 +1 (dex) + 8 (fullplate) + 4 (tower shield) + 1 (dodge) + 1 (shield specialist (kalamar)) + 1 (stonebones Kalamar) + 5 (combat expertise)= 31 AC
off course with if we continue this. With improved combat expertise, dwarven defender, phalanx fighting, gaint bane, tumble (since a dwarf`s speed isn`t reduced).

Normally:
10 + 1 dex + 8 fullplate + 4 towershield + 1 dodge + 1 shield specialist + 1 stone bones + 20 improved combat expertise + 4 defensive stance + 1 phalanx fighting + 6 full defense= 57 ac

Agianst a giant it becomes even more scarier:
10 + 1 dex + 8 fullplate + 4 towershield + 1 dodge + 1 shield specialist + 1 stone bones + 20 improved combat expertise + 4 defensive stance + 1 phalanx fighting + 4 giant bane + 6 full defense + 4 dwarven racial bonus agianst giaints= 65 ac

You almost don`t need magic items.