What is your character's AC at 20th level with no enhancements?

[KarinsDad]

I wouldn't tell my players "She's using Combat Expertise" either, but I would mention that she seems to be focusing on defense rather than going all out. The players may not realize it, but the 6th lvl PC who has been through dozens of life and death combats is likely to have at least that much knowledge, IME.

So, how is saying that "she seems to be focusing on defense" not really the same as saying "She's using Combat Expertise"?

I suspect that if you said that to your players, they would get the message anyway.

 

[magic_gathering2001]

20th level duelist:
66 all non-magical

10+6(Dex (5 from levels))+3(Int(from Duelist))+1(Two weapon defense)+1(5+ranks in tumble)+2(defensive fighting)+17(improved combat expertise)+1(dodge)+10(Duelist)+2(monk)+3(Wis from monk)

But...
Bab:
17-17+6(dex)-2(two weapon fighting)-4(fighting defensively) for a net bonus of... +0
Edit:Add in VoP and AC is like 80+

 

[shilsen]

So, how is saying that "she seems to be focusing on defense" not really the same as saying "She's using Combat Expertise"?

I suspect that if you said that to your players, they would get the message anyway.

It could mean the person's fighting defensively, using total defense (though I'd probably vary the description for that), using Combat Expertise, using Dodge vs. that particular PC, and so on.

The DMG clearly says that combat maneuvers should be described so as to be understood by the PCs, and I find it improves my game to do that. YMMV.

 

[TheGogmagog]

I think you will find that 90% of caster's will have less than 15 armor, 50% of they heavy armor wearer's will be less than 20, and 40% of the rest will have 20-25.

If your ac is still under 20 (without magic) at 20th level you are normal. You probably have magic to raise it another 10 for most of the day, and maybe some feats like combat expertise to raise it further at the cost of being an effective combatant.

Heck, a tower shiled gives full cover = infinite AC. Unless of course someone targets you with a touch spell.

These whirling dervish character AC optimization examples you see are not playable in most situations (charm/hold/dominate person). I never see any of those characters played. Aside from Twinswords, none of these posts suggest they have ever played these characters, let alone frequently used these maneuvers for max AC. If you limit the replys to characters they are currently playing, I think you will find answers more in line with what is normal.

 

[Bill Muench]

These whirling dervish character AC optimization examples you see are not playable in most situations (charm/hold/dominate person). I never see any of those characters played. Aside from Twinswords, none of these posts suggest they have ever played these characters, let alone frequently used these maneuvers for max AC. If you limit the replys to characters they are currently playing, I think you will find answers more in line with what is normal.

I'm not sure why you think that the dervish isn't playable. First off, Dervish has good Will saves. Mine has a Will save of +15, so he's not worried about charm/hold/dominate any more than your average fighter type (and probably less, since he usually has a pro evil or magic circle vs. evil on him, plus he's got a ring of freedom of movement). Heck, at 16th level a straight-class Fighter only has a +5 Base save. Multiclassed fighters usually have even less. IIRC my dervish has a Base Will save of +10 before magic items.

And you'd have to refer back to the other thread, but the 2 characters I've mentioned here (high-level Clr and Dervish) have been played from 1st-level on up to where they are now (17th and 16th, respectively). In fact, most people's posts indicate that they've played or are playing these characters. Might want to take another read over the thread.

 

[KarinsDad]

It could mean the person's fighting defensively, using total defense (though I'd probably vary the description for that), using Combat Expertise, using Dodge vs. that particular PC, and so on.

Stating this for Total Defense would be fairly redundant since the NPC does not attack that round during his init. It could be a little misleading to a player if the player was not paying attention and did not notice that the NPC did not attack.

Stating this for Fighting Defensively would be virtually identical as stating it for Combat Expertise. You are telling the players straight up that the opponent is lowering his offensive capability. Ditto for giving hints about the power of a given blow with Power Attack, etc.

Stating this for Dodge is intentionally misleading the player. You are implying that the NPC is either using Combat Expertise or Fighting Defensively (or both) which could easily mislead a player into using an alternative attack form. As a DM, I find it preferable to not play these types of mind games on my players since it is not fun for anyone.

The DMG clearly says that combat maneuvers should be described so as to be understood by the PCs, and I find it improves my game to do that. YMMV.

Could you please tell us what page this is on in the DMG?

I cannot find it in my copy of the DMG.

I can find on page 26 where it states to describe a combat result with a "good visual description". And there is also a section on visually describing critical hits on that page.

But, this is not the same as giving hints to your players as to which combat maneuvers and feats the NPCs are using. It's adding flavor text.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hey, thanks for the input, everyone.

You could use True Strike to counter the lost attack bonuses, couldn't you?
That is, if you are 20th level, and you use all of your BAB to defend yourself using Improved Combat Expertise, you could compensate for that with True Strike.

Now, I know that casting True Strike is a standard action, so you'd be limited to 1 attack per 2 rounds, and True Strike only affects the next attack and not a full attack.
Obviously, that won't work, then.
So, how to overcome the limitations of True Strike?

Can anyone answer that?

 

[magic_gathering2001]

2,000 gp for true strike whenever you want it in a magic item, 100,000 for true strike as a swift action at will in a magic item.

And by the way, I do play the duelist, played him from level three on and off. He doesn't always devote all of his BaB to AC but always fights defensively.

 

[shilsen]

Could you please tell us what page this is on in the DMG?

I cannot find it in my copy of the DMG.

Sure. Page 17, under NPC actions.

I can find on page 26 where it states to describe a combat result with a "good visual description". And there is also a section on visually describing critical hits on that page.

But, this is not the same as giving hints to your players as to which combat maneuvers and feats the NPCs are using. It's adding flavor text.

See above, where it specifically says that one should be giving such hints.

 

[Aeric]

10th level Warforged (fighter 8/paladin 2)

Dex 13: +1
Adamantine Body feat (equivalent to full plate armor): +8
Heavy Steel Shield: +2

AC without any magic enhancements: 21